The Killing Floor - Week 11

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

I'm going to open it back up to everyone this week. BUT I will ask that if you HAVE gone before, to wait 24 hours and if there is still one of the 5 spots available, go ahead and take it.

If you haven't though - this is a great chance to come in and get some of that good ole constructive criticism that you have been craving!

Comments

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

Okay, guys and girls, I wrote a 53,000 word novella last year. Shopping it around has proven frustrating. I'm on the verge of e-booking the damned thing.

Here's the first 5,500 words if anyone is so inclined to read about Death, tattooists, a photographer, and love.

http://bleodswean.livejournal.com/170037.html

Concrit I'm looking for is: flow, characterization, Death's voice, does this first chapter hook and why or why not?

TIA!!!

[kickthehobbit.livejournal.com]

OK. The good, and then the stuff that needs work, split into two comments, because LJ is evil.

You write really descriptively. It's nice—you've got a definite feel for how everything in your world looks, and you translate that really well to the reader. You've hit a good balance, in most places, between "showing" and "telling", and things feel very real. Your pacing is good—I don't think that's something you need to worry about.

That leaves the other points that you were asking for critique on: Death's voice, flow, whether the chapter 'hooks', and characterization.

To start: I have to say, I wasn't sold on the way this opened. I realize that you're writing from the point of view of Death, to start, and that's an exceptionally difficult place to start from. You've written Death in such a way that we, as your readers, are supposed to empathize with him—and that can be done, just look at Sandman—but I'm not convinced that it's working, here. There isn't enough personality to your Death to make them an empathetic character—we get the sense that they're an enigma, and then we're thrown into someone else's story. It's very abrupt, and while there are some nice lines in that intro, to catch the reader's attention, what you continue with afterward is different enough that it's difficult to maintain that attention.

That segues neatly into the next thing that you asked for critique on: flow. While your pacing is good, the flow is sort of jarring. We start in second-person point of view (which I have no problem with!), then switch immediately to third-person limited, then again, another switch, still in third-person, with a different point of view character. Again—it feels too abrupt. We get this weird, intense scene with Jakob tattooing himself (why?), and then we're suddenly getting a description of the studio and its location from Evangeline. This we continue with for a few pages, until we're back to Death, again—very abruptly&mash;and after Death, back to Jakob—which is again, short and strange (not in a bad way, just jarring!), talking about the pain of being tattooed—then Evangeline, again. We don't really get enough of a sense of what is going on to care about Jakob as a point of view character—he pops in and out in brief flashes, and apart from tattoos and pain, we don't see much into what he's like. Evangeline's stuff works, and I would probably consider running with the idea of telling the story almost entirely from her point of view, or else expanding on the other areas (Death's, Jakob's) so that they feel less out of place.

Part of what I was dancing around in the previous paragraph was the idea of characterization—I mention, with Death and Jakob, that we don't get enough information to care about them, and that reading their sections was strange. I think that's true. I also think that while Evangeline is working as a character, we don't see enough of the other people in the scenes—Frank and the other tattoo artists—to have them be anything other than a foil to her. I'm not sure if they're going to be developed more as the story continues (as this is 50K words, as you said—long enough that you have plenty of time to develop their characters)—if they're not, that's something you need to seriously reconsider. I don't think it's necessary that your reader know everything ever about characters that are strictly background—we don't need to know their favorite color or where they went to school or anything—but fleshing them out a bit beyond being a foil for your main character(s) would be good. Speaking of main characters—we need some insight into what Jakob is like, beyond tattoos and darkness and pain—you need to ignite that spark of interest in his character immediately, else it's difficult to want to read more about him.

[kickthehobbit.livejournal.com]

(Part 2/2, stupid character limits. :) )

Now—whether or not it hooks. No. It doesn't. I'm sorry—I hate to state something that baldly, but as someone reading this, I didn't care about reading more. I didn't actively hate it or anything—it just didn't capture enough of my attention that I'd be willing to read the rest of the novel. I think that addressing the things that I've talked about above, mostly working on flow, will help with that.

Finally—one of the things that threw me about this, that is probably worth mentioning—while this is really great in parts, and while parts of it work really well, there are areas that don't work so well. You're already stretching suspension of disbelief with writing about death—to make that work, you need to write really solid, believable characters and put them into believable scenes. There's one scene in particular that really isn't working right now—when Evangeline runs into Jakob as he's leaving the tattoo shop. Again—I realize that he's supposed to be dark and complicated, but literally growling at your protagonist and pushing her away feels less dark and complicated and more ridiculous. Adults don't behave that way, and to have her do anything other than dismiss him as a childish asshole—because that's how he's behaving, tattoos or no—feels unrealistic.

I don't think this is something you should just give up on getting published—I'm not going to tell you to ebook it. I think it is something that could be traditionally published if you were willing to put in the work. It's a good draft—it's not quite up to the point where I'd start pitching it. Consider the feedback you'll get from other people in The Killing Floor, and go forward from there.

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

Thanks for reading and taking the time to comment - I really appreciate that!

So, you're saying that in the first 10% of the story you want to see the entire cast of characters fleshed out? I'm not sure how one could do that. :)

The segues are meant to be jarring - Death and Jakob's stories are conjoined chapters and the story is Evangeline's. Jakob's bits only come after Death's voice and they entwine. That is obviously not working for you but it is woven throughout and perhaps if you were hooked, which I know you are not, then the ending would balance the staccato beginnings?

I will take a closer look at Jakob's intro. He IS a child - it's a maturing story about his growth once he becomes involved with Evangeline.

Some small critiques you've made have me realizing that I'm not being clear enough because of misinterpretation of the scenes - I'll def take a closer look at those things!

Sorry to not pull you in. That's the key of the first ten thousand words...wish I could unlock it.

[kickthehobbit.livejournal.com]

(I took time to read your response then go ahead and re-read the piece, so hopefully this will be clear. :) )

It's not that I want to see the characters fleshed out so much as—you have these interactions between Evangeline and the other people in the tattoo shop. Mark, I'm fine with—it's characters like Frank who seem to have been inserted almost to give comic relief and don't really 'gel' with the rest of the story. I don't think you need to flesh them out so much as think of what purpose they're serving. Are they a major part of the story? If they're not, then why do they get so much dialog? If this is Evangeline's story, then the crux of this first section should be on the interaction between her and Mark—and we don't need one-liners from Frank to cement that.

Regarding the Death and Jakob bits—perhaps I should have been clearer in what did vs. did not work for me in the story. I think that as it stands right now, the short, choppy bits you have that are Death/Jakob are clearly detracting from the story and are not doing what you intend them to do. They are what threw me out of the story the most and what ultimately made me go, "This has potential but isn't working as a cohesive whole yet." Yes, they're supposed to be short and jarring—I understood that their being short and choppy was deliberate, that this is something you are doing—but again, instead of working and making the reader go, "Wow, this is weird and uncomfortable and I want to know more about what's going on", they, to me, took me out of the story without doing anything to add to it. If the passages that were from Jakob's point of view had been more developed—less ambiguous (which I feel was likely also deliberate—my apologies if I'm wrong)—if they set it up and made it clear that he's someone the reader should be interested in, by virtue of making him interesting—less dark and mysterious and more fully realized and human—then they might work. It's similar to what I told icaruslived about some of his work—you know these characters inside and out. You know what their motivations are, the way they are. You know everything about them. You created them. The trouble is getting that onto the page—showing your reader why they should care, while maintaining the balance between showing and telling. When I read this first section, what I get is that Jakob is some dark, brooding, childish asshole—and as much as I want to go, "OK, what's the story with the tattoos?", I ultimately find myself going, "Does it really matter what the story with the tattoos is when he's really not a character I'm otherwise interested in?"

That's the difficulty of writing. If you can nail that, you'll manage the hook within the first 10K words, no problem—because people will be interested by the characters as well as by the central 'mystery' of the plot. You've got a plot that is interesting, and I want to see where you're going with it. My main "beef", so to speak, is that things don't hang together well, yet—but that's something that can be fixed with judicious editing.

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

Again, I appreciate you taking the time.

You're coming through loud and clear. No worries. You don't like this first introduction and you don't care about the characters. No one is introduced for comic relief and all the characters figure in the story. It is a love story about Jakob and Evangeline, about a broken boy but a girl who is actually more broken. I think that needs to be arrived at and not explained in the first two scenes. I think sometimes we get too much exposition, the writer telling us how to perceive a character, rather than allowing the reader to make up their own mind. You say you don't care for Jakob - that's the effect that is intended. Evangeline is also not particularly likable. Mark and Death should be the only sympathetic characters at this point.

I understand that Death's voice isn't working for you. At all. And I appreciate you saying so! Believe me when I say that I'm taking your concrit and trying to "see" the story fresh!

What is my plot? And how is it more/less interesting?

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

I like Death's voice, first and foremost. It is an interesting break from the rest of the prose, and the sections seem to flow well enough together, for me. I think, in such a long section/the first chapter of something roughly 50k words long, though, that he should show up more, more or less. His sections are so few and far between (only two, if I recall correctly), that it's hard for the reader to really grasp the connection of those sections to the over all story -- though the last 1000 words or so of the first chapter make that connection a bit clearer.

I do like the set up of Evangeline's and Mark's relationship. It's obvious that there is some distance between them and that said distance is growing -- but you could just as easily cut a lot of your exposition and show that with the dialogue and their actions that you have present in the story, already. This is especially true for me, whenever Evangeline focuses on Jakob. Her interest in him is obvious, and you can tell there's a romance that may be brewing, eventually.

As for whether the piece hooked me -- I wasn't entirely disinterested. I am curious to know more of what's going on, but I also wasn't so riveted that I didn't get distracted by other things on the internet. It's good, and I wouldn't mind sitting down and reading the whole thing/getting to know your characters better, but for the first 10th of the book, more or less, it drags a tiny bit. I want you to grab me a little more, flesh your characters out a tiny bit more. I totally understand that who they are can't come through loud and clear in only 5k words (after all, there are things like character development and shit that don't happen over night), but Jakob doesn't appeal to me (yet), but Evangeline does. Her relationship with Mark intrigues me, but I have a weakness for dying relationships and the emergence of fresher, newer romance where the two are obviously better suited for one another.

All in all, I like it. I think it could use some editing and reworking of parts (from the 5k you've offered up on the Floor) so that it's a bit tighter and more showy than telly, but the bones of it are good and intriguing, to me. :)

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking the time to read and give me feedback. I'll take a closer look at how I could cut some exposition and jump right into character development. Jakob is THE main focus in the next chapter and it's a doozy. Death's voice also becomes more entwined with Jakob's actions after this opening sequence - we see his biblical brothers.

I have to be honest, the first 10K of this has been professionally edited...and it was then that the expositon was demanded and the dialogue got moved 2,000 words into the piece. I'm a bit at a loss as to what I can change to better hook my reader. I'm squinting trying to see it because I DO want to hook the reader. 10K is probably a more fair look-see than 5K for a novella-length outing.

I'm glad to hear you say that Death's voice is okay by you. His voice is the most problematic in the piece and I want to hold onto it because I feel it's the experimental part of an experimental short fiction piece. I like the idea of maybe adding more Death, cuz that is always a good thing! ;)

Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to like Jakob at all yet. Sorry, that isn't something that can be changed this early into the story. He's a problem child. I do think....maybe....I need more physical descriptors? But all of that comes next. Hmmmm....

And yeah *fist bumps* the agony of a dying thing that used to be beautiful...is so hurty.

I might put up more of this for my flist, I have no problem friending you or linking you if you are interested. It is finished and polished and edited and all that...

crit, part 1

[n3m3sis43.livejournal.com]

Fair warning: It is 6:30 am, I am half-awake and just came home from traveling, and I am writing this crit more or less stream-of-consciousness. Also, giving crit makes me nervous. So hopefully I did okay.

First things first, I do like Death's voice. His prose is a little flowery, but not so much that it annoys me. I mean, I think Death should be a little flowery, really--he's Death and he can do what he wants!

What I want to say, but it won't translate right, is that my friend JT would totally dig the beginning part with Death. By which I mean that this section didn't 100% sell me (but it didn't not sell me, either), but I think that there are people out there who would eat it up with a spoon. My friend JT, for reference, had a coffin bookshelf where he kept his favorite books, had a signed first edition of Imajica by
Clive Barker, and liked to say "fucking metal" a lot. I am not sure if this is your target market or not and I am sure there are ways of making it appeal to a wider audience if not.

Like I said, from that point I was not 100% sold but would read more.

Beginning with the block of italics is a little bit offputting to me. I find a lot of italics in one place a bit annoying to the eye. That said, I have used them before, for flashbacks and things like that. But I'm trying to cut down.

I'm guessing the point of the italics is to show that this part is in Death's voice? But I don't think you need them. I thiiiiiink the fact that you're switching from first to third sets the Death sections apart enough on its own.

Your prose flows well and the small sections work for me. Bear in mind that I tend to be a choppy sort of writer, though, myself. I find really short sections hard to pull off, and you did it well IMO. I would have liked maybe a teeeeeensy bit more information about Jakob in his first section, just some small but punchy emotional morsel to suck me in a bit more. But at this point, I am still reading and would not have put the book down if I were just a random reader.

I really liked the comparison/contrast between Mark and the tattoo studio. This is the point where I am starting to be hooked a bit, because I am a sucker for things like that. And it makes me want to know more about Mark, and tells me this is probably a character-driven thing and yayyyy, character-driven.

The part with Jakob running into Evangeline at the tattoo parlor works for me, depending on what kind of person he is and how old he is, etc. I've known plenty of people in their early twenties who would behave that way, although they're not people I'd particularly like to be friends with. So I guess my question is whether he's supposed to be likeable, questionably likeable, immature, abrasive or what. But I don't find the scene to be an automatic turnoff like one of the other commenters did.

Whether or not Jakob is supposed to be likeable, the detail that he's getting this insane and highly visible tattoo but doesn't like to be looked at? That's it. That is the point where I am hopelessly hooked because I have got to know why and this is the kind of shit that gets me right there.

For the record, this means you hooked me about 1800 words in. I have no idea how long the average reader will stick with a story, or whether you have any desire to play to the average reader. But even though I was not completely sucked in until this point, there was no place before this when I would have put the book down, either. I am a fan of authors like Stephen King, who will ramble for damn near eternity before getting a damn point, though, so again. YMMV.

(continued in next comment because LJ is an asshole)

crit, part 2

[n3m3sis43.livejournal.com]

The dialogue between everyone in the tattoo parlor flows well and is a really nice contrast to the more "proper" narrative style.

By the next section (where Evangeline is photographing Mark), I'm like, awwwww, Mark, so I think you're doing well with the characterizations. At this point, even though we've seen things mostly from Evangeline's POV, she's the one I can't really connect to yet. I'm thinking this is by design, given that you've mentioned she's sort of been holding Mark at arm's length?

The second Death section spoke to me a bit more than the first, because it touched that writer part of me. The italics didn't really bother me this time, although I still question the use of them as an opening to the book.

And yes, at this point I kind of like Jakob. Well, "like" isn't the right word, but I tend to like characters who aren't necessarily likeable. Mainly because I also tend to write them.

In the section where Evangeline is going over the photographs of Jakob's tattoo session, I really enjoyed the part where you show Jack's reaction to Jakob and how it is different from Mark's. My only "complaint" here is I feel like the part where you contrast Mark and Jakob is maybe a bit tell-y?

Oh, Jakob. Yeah, okay. The fact that he wants (or at least expects) people to be disgusted by him. Hits me right in the feels. And as far as I am concerned, he is introduced and characterized perfectly so far.

The dialogue between Evangeline and Mark in the final section felt a little bit stilted to me. However, this was also the section where I finally started to warm up to Evangeline (I think it was the way she actually saw Jakob instead of just, you know, seeing him visually).

Overall, I think you have a lot of potential here. You have strong characters and an interesting story. My guess is that the beginning may be a bit slow for some readers. Personally, I would probably read the fuck out of this novella.

Re: crit, part 2

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

Thanks for all these luscious words! I appreciate you taking the time to read and then type out your thoughts and impressions. I'm relieved to hear that it works for you and I agree, I think it's very reader-specific in its tone and subject matter.

I've struggled with how to differentiate Death's voice. I'm still working on those parts.

Glad you got how punk rock Jakob is. This is a totally recognizable character to me but I think I am going to look closer at identifying his "type" more in the first two introductory sections.

I can send you the completed manuscript if you're interested. PM me.

I want to get to your concrit request below and hope to do that by this evening.

Re: crit, part 2

[n3m3sis43.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you found my words useful!

I would love it if you get to my concrit request, too, but no worries if you don't. :)

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

Going along with the same theme of "Opening Chapters of Books," in this here Killing Room --

This is my potential first chapter of my book "Gray Morning."

http://theun4givables.livejournal.com/179829.html

My questions are the same as bleodswean's below: Is it a good hook? Does it give you a good impression of these characters and their relationship with one another? Does it flow well?

I am also curious about the technical, but I want to know if the emotion comes through or not, more than anything else. Is the dialogue engaging? Is it paced well?

Hit me with everything you've got. :)

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

I'm not coming at this with fresh eyes because I've been reading along with your serialized installments, so I already have a feel for these two...

Let me ask you this, first. What is your ultimate goal with this? How long do you see it clocking in at? And is the sex going to get more explicit? There are many opportunities online for work to be "published" in this genre, so it's viable, for sure. But...out the door? There's probably too much intimacy in the first few thousand words unless that IS the tone you want to take with this.

I like these guys. I mean, how can you not? They are likable and very real. I don't now and have not really gotten a vibe of "emperor" from Jazz.

This is a strong opening - the missed phone calls is the perfect segue way into the dead mother. Nice! But now we need some exposition or internal monologue from Savin. What is his relationship with his mother? How long have he and Jazz been together? What is Jazz's relationship with both Savin's father and mother?

And I think that means the reader is hooked because these are the questions that over-ride the experience of this introductory bit.

keep going.

Oh, and I want to "see" the boys. Paint me a picture with words.

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

Ultimate goal: show what they were like prior to certain events that will happen later in the book, because uh -- we have a similar, "destruction of a relationship," idea, except J&S are supposed to possibly, hopefully, work through their shit (if it weren't for extenuating circumstances). Length-wise, the first draft came in just under 90k; this current draft is at roughly 20k, and I think it'll clock in at about the same length.

Sex probably isn't going to get more explicit, because of that. While I do enjoy writing smut, this go around the boys seem to want to be tamer. SEEM. So far everything I've written for this draft of GM appears to be less... explicit? But the innuendo and fading-to-black is certainly upped.

Yay! :) I like when people like my babies, hah. And yeah, Jazz is like, anti-politician like until he is actually in Emperor-mode, but politicians are (mostly) human beings, too, y'know? That's what I like about him and his contrast with Mitchel, hah.

Next chapter actually starts the morning of the funeral -- where it's revealed that Savin and Nina were close, Savin and his father (Hajime) are not, etc. It's also where I first start dropping hints of how Jazz's relationship with Mitchel may be detrimental to J&S's relationship. And I'm glad that you have all of those questions, because yes, that does mean the reader is hooked! :)

And yeah, I am AWFUL about descriptions -- I tend to drop little hints here and there, but yes. I need to up that, a little bit, thanks. :)

Sticking to the theme of opening chapters of books (lol)...

[n3m3sis43.livejournal.com]

This was my week 2 Idol piece this season. It got some really nice comments but performed worse in the polls than almost anything else I have written so far in season 9. So I'm guessing there are lots of ways it could be improved, and would love to hear all about them.

I would love crit of any kind, and be as brutal as you want as long as it is constructive. That said, this is the beginning of larger work, so whether it makes you want to read more is important to me. Always important to me are voice, POV, characterization, and, well, everything else. <3

http://n3m3sis43.livejournal.com/102257.html

Re: Sticking to the theme of opening chapters of books (lol)...

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

First, don't take the polls, especially in week 2, as the measuring stick of whether or not this piece is working. You did get some great comments and you should focus on the positive energy that your readers were conveying back to you.

Second, keep writing. Overpolishing or micro-editing a piece before you have your rough rough draft is not conducive to getting the story out of your head and into readable words. You CAN use: Character Sheets, storyboarding, scene scripting, and non-linear writing. All or one or a combination of these things can help spark the fire.

Yes, the reader is hooked by this opening bit. It does need a line-by-line critique and edit but NOT RIGHT NOW.

Technically, the tendency to contract nouns such as this - shocks're - is something that doesn't work for me in the internal monologuing. It's fine in your dialogue. Dialectal.

Also, if this is a part of a longer piece, you may want to storyboard it so that you know if you're giving too much away in the beginning. Don't give everything away! Let the reader and the other characters have to do some work to earn the information.

I like the italics for the "other" voice. Nice. But you might not want to use italics to emphasize words in dialogue, again, though, that's more of a line edit than anything else. Try writing a piece of italicized dialogue without it and using expression or action to replace it, in order to convey the meaning.

I like that this is creepy. And I like that it's about a young male.

KEEP GOING.

Re: Sticking to the theme of opening chapters of books (lol)...

[n3m3sis43.livejournal.com]

You are the second person (at least) who has told me that about the contractions (the other one I remember was on a different piece from this 'verse). So I think I am going to have to work on toning that down. I like your suggestion of having it limited to dialogue and not inner monologue (because it is a dialect thing specific to only some of the characters).

I have an entire first draft of the longer piece. It is a hot mess and somewhat lacking in the plot department. I also have somewhere in the neighborhood of 200k worth of notes and outlines and who even knows what for the future draft and some ideas of where the plot is going.

What I don't have is the ability to write a second draft without, as you said, micro-editing. So thank you (seriously!!) for calling me out on that. I need to write the damn second draft and quit psyching myself out.

And I think you're right about the italics. I will work on that.

Thank you!! :D