The Work Shop @ LJ Idol - Episode 2

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

After a great first episode, The Work Shop @ LJ Idol is back for a second!

Thank you for your support. I want to continue to provide this sort of thing, so make sure to spread the word! The more people who participate, the better!

Also, there are donation buttons and a link to the LJ IDOL STORE on the sidebar. Those are great ways to “give back” and help things like the Work Shop, and Season 9, happen!

As I’ve posted over the last couple of weeks, there are some great new books out from Season 8 fan favorites milk_and_glass notodette and whipchick’s Champion Christopher Buehlman, so be sure to check them out!
***
As for Episode 2, I invited joeymichaels and sharya to discuss their process as one of the most effective duos to come through those halls.

Fortunately, for all of us, they agreed to it… so, let’s get this show started!


***

Gary has offered sharya and I an opportunity to discuss anddemonstrate out working method this week.


During the two season I competed (6 and 7), everything I wrote as an official entry was edited by Shar. Even if I wasn't pretty severely dyslexic, I would want to work with an editor. In addition to fixing spelling, grammar, formatting, awkward word choices, etc., Shar provides me with feedback about the quality of the storytelling or the piece as a whole. I've abandoned or completely restructured pieces based on her feedback.

Rather than talk about how we work together, we thought we'd show you. What follows is a very brief rough draft by me. After that, you can read Shar's first batch of edits and feedback. She and I will continue this discussion in the comments and, working together, we'll produce a finished version of this piece (or a piece like it) in the comments.


I've selected (part of a) prompt from LJI Season 2 as a starting point for this entry: FRIENDS – MAKING THEM, KEEPING THEM, AND LOSING THEM.


---

Sleeping Is Giving In

The gunshot was still ringing in her ears, but instead of being dead, Tia found herself lying naked on a warm metal table. She could still smell the gun's discharge and her wrist ached from the kickback. A mask covered face leaned over her, its breathing tube dangling inches from Tia's face.

"Did we get her? Or is that still the slug?" a voice asked over a speaker.

"Its her but she's bleeding," said the mask, "but I think she's just been grazed. She seems lucid."

Tia screamed.

"Yeah, definitely lucid."

Tia felt a sharp prick in her arm and felt herself start to drift off.

"I've sedated her. I'm going to get to work on the head wound."

"Good work, Susan," said the voice over the speaker.

Everything around Tia went black.

When Tia regained consciousness, she found herself in her bedroom,
alone. Her first thought, naturally, was that it had all been a dream - stealing the money from the register; having her boss threaten to call the police; driving home in hysterics; getting the gun; the person in the mask. Then she felt a throbbing on the side of her head and the tightness of bandaging. She started to reach for her wound, but her arms were restrained. Tia decided that she must have failed to kill herself. Her parents must have found her and tied her to the bed so she wouldn't do anymore damage to herself. The worst possible ending to the event.

And then the voice from speaker spoke, but in her head.

"Welcome back, Tia," it said gently.

Tia didn't say anything, but her mind was racing. Maybe she was dead?
Maybe this was hell?

"This isn't hell, Tia."

"What is going on?"

"I know this is confusing... it was confusing for me, too, at first. We replaced you just as you pulled the trigger with a clone slug. Its in your grave right now. Has been for almost 400 years."

"400 years?"

"We need you... well, we need somebody and you come very highly recommended... I recommended you, in fact..."

"Recommended? What? Who are you?"

"Somebody who loved you in another life. We've all been through the same thing you've been through. Well, similar things. Can we trust you to not harm yourself... at least until you see what we need you for?"

Tia's thoughts were jumbled, but she was more curious about what was going on than in ending her life at the moment. The voice responded before she could speak.

"I thought you'd see it that way."

With that, the restraints around her wrists unwrapped themselves and Tia's bedroom melted away into the inside of a bare metallic gray cube. A door slid opened and in walked a slightly familiar man.

"Billy?" said Tia, "But you're so much older..."

"I didn't try to kill myself until I was 35. I have a lot to show you."

He offered her his hand and they exited the room.

---

Over to you, Shar!

---
sharya’s response:
Ok, first impressions:(And this feedback is assuming that this piece is written for the lj idol competition rather than for any other purpose)

The first sentence might be putting people off a bit. I mean right away, it's talking about a gun and a girl near death, and lying naked on a table - the naked part led me to believe there might be something sexual going on here, and I thought this was going to turn into a piece about a sexual assault. It didn't though, but to start it off that way might be a bit off-putting and some might not finish the piece based on the first sentence. Just food for thought there, but I think it would go over better without the naked reference.

It then flows really well until it gets to the point of the sentence that mentions the clone slug. Now it could just be that I'm really tired, but that part lost me. I re-read it a few times and I think that part needs to be fleshed out a little more - it's introducing a foreign concept with not much in the way of an introduction.

I'd say you had my interest right away, and I'm pretty sure I was hooked by the mention of 400 years.

Good start! Keep going – I want to read the end!

(Joey to continue in the comments)

Comments

[pixiebelle.livejournal.com]

sharya has also edited for me a time or two, and it's always very helpful.

I have other editors such as java_fiend who gives me that type of feedback as well. I feel like its a way to grow. We work through the pieces in person rather than email so we can debate what works and what doesn't. And there are times that I don't agree with him and keep it the way I wrote it. There are also times I go "duh. That was so stupid for me to not think of..." And I learn by the discussion we have.

I have also used alien_infinity, whipchick and roina_arwen several times, and others I've used once or twice (that list would be way too long). I love a variety of opinions on my writing. Everyone has something different. I've had one editor love something I've done, another urge me to cut it. I credit my growth this season to the feedback I've gotten. I can list specific things that each of my beta readers helped me with.

Not to mention, I need help in the grammar department. I often get to writing so fast, I don't stop to think about grammar and editing my own work for that sort of thing is hard. I'm more of a content editor. It helps me put out a cleaner piece of work and to learn more about what works and what doesn't.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

It's really interesting to watch the editing process, and it's particularly fascinating to see how a writer can take a piece of feedback and use that to improve a piece.

Have you found that each of your editors offer different kinds of feedback?

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I am always interested in the relationships other people have with their editors. I tend to work with people who I trust and who I know will be brutal. Because of this I also tend to be brutal when I edit for them and for others. It's a warning I put out there if anyone new ever asks me to edit for them. I will give someone the friendly version of an edit if they really want me to look at it but won't react well to my usual sort of response, but I kind of feel like saving someone's feelings doesn't do the story any favors and writing is tough business anyway. (Which isn't to say I'm a total rude jerk about it who tears people down. Just, you know, candid.) I tend to be just as hard on myself from the get go.

Totally stalking this thread to see how the back and forth goes. *chinhands*

[sharya.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean! When we first started, I was super reluctant to say much of anything that might be construed as critical. But as the editing relationship progressed, I became more confident in what I was saying, and that he wouldn't take it the wrong way. Now I'm borderline harsh :P

[roina-arwen.livejournal.com]

This is interesting to read. I have frequently done editing / beta reading for others, but only occasionally have I asked others to beta for me; I probably should do so more often - maybe it would have helped me stay in the game longer! My editorial strengths are more on the order of word choice and clarity / grammar; my weaknesses are sometimes in catching storytelling faux pas unless it is something obvious (to me). I enjoy reading about other people's processes, and look forward to the next installment!

[sharya.livejournal.com]

Really what I love, is watching the artist shape the art, and getting to be a beta reader gives me the most amazing glimpse into the creative process.

I think for myself, my strengths in editing lie in a couple of areas: logical consistency, strategic relevance regarding the idol competition, and lastly grammar/spelling. I don't usually go over the grammar/spelling part until the final re-write though.

And of course I tend to not be very careful about those things with my own writing, but if I'm editing someone else, I'm pretty careful :P

[sharya.livejournal.com]

Totally in agreement with this. In fact, I think it's a really interesting writing exercise to try to implement someone else's feedback (even if you don't agree with it). The few times I've tried it, I've gotten a lot out of it and felt like I grew as a writer.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

ETA: Thread for Edit Conversation to continue here :)

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

Egads, almost forgot my password.

All right... To respond to your feedback.

Do you think a "Trigger Warning" would suffice to address that first issue? I wasn't intending to imply sexual violence. In my brain, the "clone slug" (more on that in a minute) was substituted for Tia at the last second via some sort of transporter beam thing. I didn't want to spell all that out because it was going to be clunky - I was aiming for making the reader feel disoriented the way that Tia feels disoriented, but I really don't want to imply something triggering - or if it does, lazily want to change as little as possible. Hmmm.

All right, "Clone slug" is not as common a phrase as I assumed it was. Essentially, its a body that is cloned that has no mind. Great for spare parts for your own body (or to transfer your mind to when you've grown old). I am not sure what else to call this thing. Again, the point it, they grew a copy of her body and then replaced her with it so there would be a corpse. Maybe a footnote?

I don't know that I'm going to continue with this past this section, but the gist of the story would be that these people who would have died as suicide (or in accidents) are being rescued to serve in an apparently noble war against tyranny. Turns out, they discover they're being duped by their leader, who's the actual tyrant in exile. Tia and Billy are among the rescued people who eventually see through and lead a revolt against the tyrant.

[lilycobalt.livejournal.com]

I know that I need to let people edit my work more often. I usually fall into the trap of, "Well, this made it past the internal editor, so that means it's good enough." Not so much. It takes different eyes to not only catch the flaws, but to set me on trains of thought that make the whole piece better.

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have the same issue. Stuff that seems fine to ME because I know what I was trying to get at is better caught by an editor. Not to mention spelling. :O

[lawchicky.livejournal.com]

This was really interesting to read. I've never used a "real" editor, though I do let the hubby read over some of my entries before posting them to get his opinion and to see if he notices any grammatical errors (more of a beta reader than an editor). I'm a poor editor of my own work, which is something I'd love to change, but it's difficult. It's one of those screwy things because I'm sure I'd benefit from that kind of in dept review, but I self-sabotage myself into not using it.

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

Having an editor forces you to finish writing earlier than you would otherwise, and that is actually a really useful kind of discipline in this sort of writing situation.

[xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com]

:nodding: SO will look over some of my entries, too, if I ask him -- he's more a beta in that he also looks for the grammar, etc., as opposed to characterization/plot. I think I'm pretty good in catching my own errors, but every so often I'll think that having somebody give me Brutal Editing Truth may not be such a bad thing. I just have to get over myself having to ask somebody to do that.

[ashgaelsonaria.livejournal.com]

I don't really use an editor. I run something threw the spell check program a half dozen times or so (it can take a few veriations to have it find the word I want) then I may or may not post it. If I get feed back that I feel works with what I want I might use it. Mostly I type something up in one or two sittings and run the spell check before being done with it. I don't do a lot of rewriting.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

The few times I have written something, and then had feedback on it, I have found it to be a totally different skill to try to be able to incorporate that feedback (if I agreed with it - sometimes I didn't). It's an interesting exercise, that's for sure.

[whipchick.livejournal.com]

Interesting to watch the editing process at work!

I agree, the opening feels like sexual assault--it's the combination of she's naked, the table is "warm metal" which doesn't sound medical at all without further context for the medical systems of the world you're creating, and the guy in the mask shows up, which sounds like a TV serial killer until we get more context.

I'm curious about what the sedative is that works instantly. Perhaps that's part of the future medical stuff, too.

Right now, my biggest question is, Why Tia? She's apparently a store clerk who lives with her parents, so why is she important or what major unique quality does she have that makes her special and necessary?

[sharya.livejournal.com]

I know, I hope he goes into it a little bit more and fleshes out the story. Why Tia indeed!

[kathrynrose.livejournal.com]

I'll be honest. I have mixed feelings about this in the context of Idol. We're not even calling it beta reading here. Editing is beyond concrit and beyond beta reading, in my mind. I get that it's completely "legal" and a legitimate part of the writerly world at large, but when X and Y are going head to head for votes, it seems unfair that what we're really voting for is X and (Y plus an editing team of A,B and C).

I guess this is another thing that has grown out of having more fiction in the contest, and I think it's one of the "serious writer" issues that some of the old timers have said make Idol seem less fun.

Outside the context of Idol, I've found that getting feedback and working to implement suggested changes have taught me about my writing. I have implemented suggestions I didn't like, and been happy with the outcome, and I've listened to suggestions and decided they weren't what I was going for.

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm going to have to second those mixed feelings. I get that this is a totally legal thing but it feels almost unfair in the context of Idol for me, too.

To me, I want to see the raw talent. For me, that's more fun and interesting. I had a few friends edit my stuff throughout my run last season but only a handful of times -- mostly whenever there was an intersection, or when I thought the vote might be gatekeepers. But really? I didn't like doing it. It felt unfair.

Outside of the context of Idol, though, I love feedback and wish I got more of it. I like receiving feedback on a finished piece during the competition -- because I know that it'll help me improve. But I want to show the other contestants what I'm capable of without the help of others when I'm competing. That just feels "right" to me lol.

[medleymisty.livejournal.com]

Reading these comments - dude. I don't fit in ANYWHERE, lol.

I write fiction, mostly. I LOVE fiction. I LOVE writing pretty words and deep characters and emotional things. Or funny things, or scary things, or angry things, or well - ALL the things! Writing is extremely important to me, and I want to be the best writer I can possibly be. Writing fiction is, like, LIFE.

I never had a beta reader or an editor or anything. And I thought I was having fun, writing my little fictional stories.

I've met some absolutely great friends in Idol, and it pulled me out of a deep hole of bullying and emotional abuse from the Sims community, but stuff like this is why I'm still not really sure about participating next season.

I don't understand this tug of war between "serious" and "fun", and I feel like because I have fun writing fiction I'm ruining Idol for some people, and then I feel like because I don't do the beta reader and editing thing that other people feel like I'm Doing It Wrong, and it feels all judge-y and I get scared and the anxiety from the Sims community comes back, only not as bad because I do recognize that Idol is much healthier and nicer and I'm learning boundaries and how to not be terrified and feel like a horrible person who should not exist when people around me are upset or in a conflict.

I don't know.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I think Idol is all about writing however you want to write. Whether that's in using someone to proof your work, or edit it, or doing it all yourself, I think it's all about writing your story your way.

If you don't want anyone to look over your stuff, that's ok!

This community has evolved over time, to go from a small community of people who mostly write non-fiction, to a very large community of people who write a variety of different genres. You will probably always see the people who have been here for a long time, making reference to the way it used to be.

As someone who used to compete in sports at an elite level, I have a hard time having fun at ANYTHING without being serious. That's just me here, but I know I'm not alone. Serious and fun are not mutually exclusive. In the context of the comments above, I was interpreting "serious writer" to mean someone who wrote for a living. That may not have been how it was meant, but that's how I interpreted it.

I don't think anyone is judging you here. I don't think there's any one "right way" to do it. I think it's all about finding what works best for you as a writer, and this is a community of people who are really interested in writing. If you were ever to decide that you wanted a beta reader, I know I've seen threads in the Green Room posts where people have offered up their services, but hey, if that's not what you want, then don't feel any pressure to do it!

I think that's one of the reasons why Gary invited us this week - we have a different approach, and it's interesting to see different ideas at work.

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

Man, the most feedback I ever received from anyone was after I already committed to a post and posted it to the topic thread, lol. I like that, though. I liked trying to figure out what works for people from week to week. Some of the things I hardly sweated over were the ones people loved the most. The ones I spent the most time on were often ignored. I just -- I love it.

Hopefully, next season I should not have to delete and change journals at all. And I am going to super-track my progress because I love keeping up on trends for myself. I think that's what I love about Idol the most -- it allows me to see what a wide field of people like and dislike. And it allows me the opportunity to keep writing and improving.

I'm one of those that take the competition and writing seriously while still having loads of fun doing it -- without editors or beta readers. I probably should have them, and I know that next season I have several people I can run things by -- but whether I use them consistently or not is to be determined. I'm wishy-washy. But I like seeing how I can improve from week to week.

And really, that's the best part of it all for me. :D

[sharya.livejournal.com]

One of the things I did for fun for several weeks one season, was to record the number of unique commenters on each entry in the competition. I then would go back and look over the ones with the highest unique comments to see what kinds of entries were getting the most.

Learning what works for people from week to week is definitely part of the fun and part of what makes it so fascinating!

[whirlgig.livejournal.com]

I'm currently in a critique class with the writer's centre and seriously enjoying it so much. Basically we have a week to read three stories our class members have written, then we discuss them in each class. It has taught me so much about editing, and the importance of getting your work read by more than one person, even if you completely trust that one person. It also has taught me so much about what readers want and how much craft it takes to write a short story - fiction or not. I'm looking around for an internet based group, if anyone is interested drop me a line.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

That sounds like a great class!

Would be interested to know about any internet-based group you find :)

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

If you're interested in following how the editing process between sharya and I developed the story, check out this comment thread (http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/606862.html?thread=63230606#t63230606).

Provocative Question

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

There's been an excellent discussion here about using editors vs not using editors in the context of LJI.

One of my goals when I was writing for LJI was to become a better writer and - for me - working closely with an editor was one way to work towards that goal. Its not the only way.

My discussion question(s), related to this, is:

How do you gauge whether you are growing as a writer? Do you have objective measures or subjective measures?

Re: Provocative Question

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

Since I write everyday now, it's hard to gauge. There are some things I have always done well and others I have lagged behind in.

However, the best way for me to see if there's been any improvement? Looking over old stuff. "Old" is also subjective here, but I'm talking about things I wrote about a year ago or longer. I could show you my first entry for LJI last season and show you my last entry I did for the home game -- and anyone would be able to see the improvement I made.

Now, would I be able to describe the growth? Probably not. My style remains relatively intact -- I can show you work I wrote when I was 14 and you can see my style even then. It's not going to go away, lol. But the way I structure things, the way everything flows -- even the size of my paragraphs and how I handle action within dialogue -- that all has changed a bit and gotten stronger. I have more emotional impact -- I have also discovered that I can, in fact, write in POV's other than third person, and do them well. So I'm still learning, definitely.

I can always tell when a piece marks a shift for me, too. There's always that slight tension that comes with it -- like I know as I'm writing it that I'm pushing my abilities. And Idol brought that out more than anything else. Because from week to week I wanted to keep improving. :)

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

I’m sure everyone knows this, but it never hurts to clarify – that the Work Shop is *at* LJ Idol, but not *about* LJ Idol.

While discussing Idol is perfectly fine - I mean come on, of course it is! - the intention of this series is about writing in general and people getting whatever help and/or encouragement they need.

Bringing in works in progress to have people take a look at them and provide feedback is very much encouraged.

[kathrynrose.livejournal.com]

I’m sure everyone knows this, but it never hurts to clarify – that the Work Shop is *at* LJ Idol, but not *about* LJ Idol.


Pretty sure not everyone did, and not at all sure how to talk about one without including the other, but hint taken and I'll STFU.