The Work Shop @ LJ Idol - Episode 2

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

After a great first episode, The Work Shop @ LJ Idol is back for a second!

Thank you for your support. I want to continue to provide this sort of thing, so make sure to spread the word! The more people who participate, the better!

Also, there are donation buttons and a link to the LJ IDOL STORE on the sidebar. Those are great ways to “give back” and help things like the Work Shop, and Season 9, happen!

As I’ve posted over the last couple of weeks, there are some great new books out from Season 8 fan favorites milk_and_glass notodette and whipchick’s Champion Christopher Buehlman, so be sure to check them out!
***
As for Episode 2, I invited joeymichaels and sharya to discuss their process as one of the most effective duos to come through those halls.

Fortunately, for all of us, they agreed to it… so, let’s get this show started!


***

Gary has offered sharya and I an opportunity to discuss anddemonstrate out working method this week.


During the two season I competed (6 and 7), everything I wrote as an official entry was edited by Shar. Even if I wasn't pretty severely dyslexic, I would want to work with an editor. In addition to fixing spelling, grammar, formatting, awkward word choices, etc., Shar provides me with feedback about the quality of the storytelling or the piece as a whole. I've abandoned or completely restructured pieces based on her feedback.

Rather than talk about how we work together, we thought we'd show you. What follows is a very brief rough draft by me. After that, you can read Shar's first batch of edits and feedback. She and I will continue this discussion in the comments and, working together, we'll produce a finished version of this piece (or a piece like it) in the comments.


I've selected (part of a) prompt from LJI Season 2 as a starting point for this entry: FRIENDS – MAKING THEM, KEEPING THEM, AND LOSING THEM.


---

Sleeping Is Giving In

The gunshot was still ringing in her ears, but instead of being dead, Tia found herself lying naked on a warm metal table. She could still smell the gun's discharge and her wrist ached from the kickback. A mask covered face leaned over her, its breathing tube dangling inches from Tia's face.

"Did we get her? Or is that still the slug?" a voice asked over a speaker.

"Its her but she's bleeding," said the mask, "but I think she's just been grazed. She seems lucid."

Tia screamed.

"Yeah, definitely lucid."

Tia felt a sharp prick in her arm and felt herself start to drift off.

"I've sedated her. I'm going to get to work on the head wound."

"Good work, Susan," said the voice over the speaker.

Everything around Tia went black.

When Tia regained consciousness, she found herself in her bedroom,
alone. Her first thought, naturally, was that it had all been a dream - stealing the money from the register; having her boss threaten to call the police; driving home in hysterics; getting the gun; the person in the mask. Then she felt a throbbing on the side of her head and the tightness of bandaging. She started to reach for her wound, but her arms were restrained. Tia decided that she must have failed to kill herself. Her parents must have found her and tied her to the bed so she wouldn't do anymore damage to herself. The worst possible ending to the event.

And then the voice from speaker spoke, but in her head.

"Welcome back, Tia," it said gently.

Tia didn't say anything, but her mind was racing. Maybe she was dead?
Maybe this was hell?

"This isn't hell, Tia."

"What is going on?"

"I know this is confusing... it was confusing for me, too, at first. We replaced you just as you pulled the trigger with a clone slug. Its in your grave right now. Has been for almost 400 years."

"400 years?"

"We need you... well, we need somebody and you come very highly recommended... I recommended you, in fact..."

"Recommended? What? Who are you?"

"Somebody who loved you in another life. We've all been through the same thing you've been through. Well, similar things. Can we trust you to not harm yourself... at least until you see what we need you for?"

Tia's thoughts were jumbled, but she was more curious about what was going on than in ending her life at the moment. The voice responded before she could speak.

"I thought you'd see it that way."

With that, the restraints around her wrists unwrapped themselves and Tia's bedroom melted away into the inside of a bare metallic gray cube. A door slid opened and in walked a slightly familiar man.

"Billy?" said Tia, "But you're so much older..."

"I didn't try to kill myself until I was 35. I have a lot to show you."

He offered her his hand and they exited the room.

---

Over to you, Shar!

---
sharya’s response:
Ok, first impressions:(And this feedback is assuming that this piece is written for the lj idol competition rather than for any other purpose)

The first sentence might be putting people off a bit. I mean right away, it's talking about a gun and a girl near death, and lying naked on a table - the naked part led me to believe there might be something sexual going on here, and I thought this was going to turn into a piece about a sexual assault. It didn't though, but to start it off that way might be a bit off-putting and some might not finish the piece based on the first sentence. Just food for thought there, but I think it would go over better without the naked reference.

It then flows really well until it gets to the point of the sentence that mentions the clone slug. Now it could just be that I'm really tired, but that part lost me. I re-read it a few times and I think that part needs to be fleshed out a little more - it's introducing a foreign concept with not much in the way of an introduction.

I'd say you had my interest right away, and I'm pretty sure I was hooked by the mention of 400 years.

Good start! Keep going – I want to read the end!

(Joey to continue in the comments)

Comments

[pixiebelle.livejournal.com]

sharya has also edited for me a time or two, and it's always very helpful.

I have other editors such as java_fiend who gives me that type of feedback as well. I feel like its a way to grow. We work through the pieces in person rather than email so we can debate what works and what doesn't. And there are times that I don't agree with him and keep it the way I wrote it. There are also times I go "duh. That was so stupid for me to not think of..." And I learn by the discussion we have.

I have also used alien_infinity, whipchick and roina_arwen several times, and others I've used once or twice (that list would be way too long). I love a variety of opinions on my writing. Everyone has something different. I've had one editor love something I've done, another urge me to cut it. I credit my growth this season to the feedback I've gotten. I can list specific things that each of my beta readers helped me with.

Not to mention, I need help in the grammar department. I often get to writing so fast, I don't stop to think about grammar and editing my own work for that sort of thing is hard. I'm more of a content editor. It helps me put out a cleaner piece of work and to learn more about what works and what doesn't.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I am always interested in the relationships other people have with their editors. I tend to work with people who I trust and who I know will be brutal. Because of this I also tend to be brutal when I edit for them and for others. It's a warning I put out there if anyone new ever asks me to edit for them. I will give someone the friendly version of an edit if they really want me to look at it but won't react well to my usual sort of response, but I kind of feel like saving someone's feelings doesn't do the story any favors and writing is tough business anyway. (Which isn't to say I'm a total rude jerk about it who tears people down. Just, you know, candid.) I tend to be just as hard on myself from the get go.

Totally stalking this thread to see how the back and forth goes. *chinhands*

[roina-arwen.livejournal.com]

This is interesting to read. I have frequently done editing / beta reading for others, but only occasionally have I asked others to beta for me; I probably should do so more often - maybe it would have helped me stay in the game longer! My editorial strengths are more on the order of word choice and clarity / grammar; my weaknesses are sometimes in catching storytelling faux pas unless it is something obvious (to me). I enjoy reading about other people's processes, and look forward to the next installment!

[sharya.livejournal.com]

ETA: Thread for Edit Conversation to continue here :)

[sharya.livejournal.com]

It's really interesting to watch the editing process, and it's particularly fascinating to see how a writer can take a piece of feedback and use that to improve a piece.

Have you found that each of your editors offer different kinds of feedback?

[sharya.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean! When we first started, I was super reluctant to say much of anything that might be construed as critical. But as the editing relationship progressed, I became more confident in what I was saying, and that he wouldn't take it the wrong way. Now I'm borderline harsh :P

[sharya.livejournal.com]

Really what I love, is watching the artist shape the art, and getting to be a beta reader gives me the most amazing glimpse into the creative process.

I think for myself, my strengths in editing lie in a couple of areas: logical consistency, strategic relevance regarding the idol competition, and lastly grammar/spelling. I don't usually go over the grammar/spelling part until the final re-write though.

And of course I tend to not be very careful about those things with my own writing, but if I'm editing someone else, I'm pretty careful :P

[pixiebelle.livejournal.com]

They totally do. That's why I like having several eyes on a piece when I get time (I usually don't).

Java is great with word choices and content help. He catches things that seem too convenient or unrealistic. Whipchick had helped me with content and what I include/don't include and how I present it. Ro and alien_infinity were both great with grammar, punctuation and word choice fixes. They also caught things that didn't appear clear. Since Java knows my idea inside and out, it wouldn't confuse him. But fresh eyes could catch that.

Everyone has something different to offer. For me? I feel my strength is content editing. I'll look for grammar fixes, but I'm more likely to catch a plot hole than a missed apostrophe.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

Totally in agreement with this. In fact, I think it's a really interesting writing exercise to try to implement someone else's feedback (even if you don't agree with it). The few times I've tried it, I've gotten a lot out of it and felt like I grew as a writer.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

For me (as I was mentioning to roina_arwen) I think my strengths lie in looking at the logical consistency, the strategic relevance regarding the idol competition, and lastly grammar/spelling. I don't usually go over the grammar/spelling part until the final re-write though.

[pixiebelle.livejournal.com]

It's hard. With Java, I can be harsh and I am. When someone new sends me something, I wonder if I should pick it apart fully or not. I did accidentally hurt someone's feelings last season because I told them their approach to the topic needed beefed up to stand out. Overall, I haven't had too many issues, but normally I could always be harsher. Having an on-going relationship helps.

I'll tear Java's stuff apart for plot holes, cliches and unrealistic characters sometimes. Same when he comes to me with ideas. Sometimes I step back and go, "wow that was harsh..."

But he appreciates it.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

Well that's just it, right? When you have the editing relationship established, a writer can see the feedback for what it is - which is an attempt to make the piece better, rather than a criticism of them or their ability.

[lilycobalt.livejournal.com]

I know that I need to let people edit my work more often. I usually fall into the trap of, "Well, this made it past the internal editor, so that means it's good enough." Not so much. It takes different eyes to not only catch the flaws, but to set me on trains of thought that make the whole piece better.

[lawchicky.livejournal.com]

This was really interesting to read. I've never used a "real" editor, though I do let the hubby read over some of my entries before posting them to get his opinion and to see if he notices any grammatical errors (more of a beta reader than an editor). I'm a poor editor of my own work, which is something I'd love to change, but it's difficult. It's one of those screwy things because I'm sure I'd benefit from that kind of in dept review, but I self-sabotage myself into not using it.

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

Egads, almost forgot my password.

All right... To respond to your feedback.

Do you think a "Trigger Warning" would suffice to address that first issue? I wasn't intending to imply sexual violence. In my brain, the "clone slug" (more on that in a minute) was substituted for Tia at the last second via some sort of transporter beam thing. I didn't want to spell all that out because it was going to be clunky - I was aiming for making the reader feel disoriented the way that Tia feels disoriented, but I really don't want to imply something triggering - or if it does, lazily want to change as little as possible. Hmmm.

All right, "Clone slug" is not as common a phrase as I assumed it was. Essentially, its a body that is cloned that has no mind. Great for spare parts for your own body (or to transfer your mind to when you've grown old). I am not sure what else to call this thing. Again, the point it, they grew a copy of her body and then replaced her with it so there would be a corpse. Maybe a footnote?

I don't know that I'm going to continue with this past this section, but the gist of the story would be that these people who would have died as suicide (or in accidents) are being rescued to serve in an apparently noble war against tyranny. Turns out, they discover they're being duped by their leader, who's the actual tyrant in exile. Tia and Billy are among the rescued people who eventually see through and lead a revolt against the tyrant.

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have the same issue. Stuff that seems fine to ME because I know what I was trying to get at is better caught by an editor. Not to mention spelling. :O

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

Having an editor forces you to finish writing earlier than you would otherwise, and that is actually a really useful kind of discipline in this sort of writing situation.

[sharya.livejournal.com]

I'll have to think about a Trigger Warning for the opening sentence, but that seems... inaccurate. It would be good if this was a post about a sexual assault or even violence, but this isn't that... this is going in a completely different direction. I honestly think if you just deleted the word "naked" that would suffice. But maybe it's not that off-putting. Let's leave it for now.

Clone slug - I think a footnote would break up the flow. Maybe just clone? If you want to keep the clone slug, maybe a mouse-over?

When you say you don't think you're going to continue past this section, are you meaning you think the story ought to end here, or that you're not feeling this piece and want to go with another. Because if it's the former, I think it needs a bit more. :P

[ashgaelsonaria.livejournal.com]

I don't really use an editor. I run something threw the spell check program a half dozen times or so (it can take a few veriations to have it find the word I want) then I may or may not post it. If I get feed back that I feel works with what I want I might use it. Mostly I type something up in one or two sittings and run the spell check before being done with it. I don't do a lot of rewriting.

[comedychick.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. Having a couple of people reading and suggesting changes as I wrote my novel is, I think, the biggest thing that pushed me to finish my novel as soon as I did. Especially when I didn't have any outside deadline like I get in Idol.

[whipchick.livejournal.com]

Interesting to watch the editing process at work!

I agree, the opening feels like sexual assault--it's the combination of she's naked, the table is "warm metal" which doesn't sound medical at all without further context for the medical systems of the world you're creating, and the guy in the mask shows up, which sounds like a TV serial killer until we get more context.

I'm curious about what the sedative is that works instantly. Perhaps that's part of the future medical stuff, too.

Right now, my biggest question is, Why Tia? She's apparently a store clerk who lives with her parents, so why is she important or what major unique quality does she have that makes her special and necessary?

[kathrynrose.livejournal.com]

I'll be honest. I have mixed feelings about this in the context of Idol. We're not even calling it beta reading here. Editing is beyond concrit and beyond beta reading, in my mind. I get that it's completely "legal" and a legitimate part of the writerly world at large, but when X and Y are going head to head for votes, it seems unfair that what we're really voting for is X and (Y plus an editing team of A,B and C).

I guess this is another thing that has grown out of having more fiction in the contest, and I think it's one of the "serious writer" issues that some of the old timers have said make Idol seem less fun.

Outside the context of Idol, I've found that getting feedback and working to implement suggested changes have taught me about my writing. I have implemented suggestions I didn't like, and been happy with the outcome, and I've listened to suggestions and decided they weren't what I was going for.

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm going to have to second those mixed feelings. I get that this is a totally legal thing but it feels almost unfair in the context of Idol for me, too.

To me, I want to see the raw talent. For me, that's more fun and interesting. I had a few friends edit my stuff throughout my run last season but only a handful of times -- mostly whenever there was an intersection, or when I thought the vote might be gatekeepers. But really? I didn't like doing it. It felt unfair.

Outside of the context of Idol, though, I love feedback and wish I got more of it. I like receiving feedback on a finished piece during the competition -- because I know that it'll help me improve. But I want to show the other contestants what I'm capable of without the help of others when I'm competing. That just feels "right" to me lol.

[kathrynrose.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm going to have to second those mixed feelings. I get that this is a totally legal thing but it feels almost unfair in the context of Idol for me, too.

Thanks for saying so. :)

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

I had meant to leave a comment saying as much as you did about receiving that type of editorial feedback prior to posting something for Idol, but I got distracted. Having a kid will do that, lol.

But really, even as a fiction writer -- I know my work is going to have flaws. I'm terrible for typos and silly things like dropping words/letters entirely. I'll definitely have people read through my stuff to catch those sorts of things, and maybe general feedback -- but any more than that just doesn't sit right with me.

If it were a more serious competition, I'd be all for the hardcore editorial process and find it completely fair. But for something that's meant to be done for fun? I dunno, man. Of course, that may totally be why I didn't get as far as I'd have liked. ;)