Green Room - Week 4 - Day 1

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

The new topics are up: http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/878746.html

and while thinking about the changes in Idol over the years I mentioned the shift from a place of non-fiction to one of fiction that a lot of people have in their heads.

Which led to the question being asked in the Work Room: http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/879055.html of

"I'm really curious about why it changed from non-fiction to fiction. You mentioned in the topic post that you know why because you saw it happening, but the change was well underway by the time I participated."

When you do something for nearly 10 years, the faces are going to change and sometimes things happen subtly so that even the people who have been around the entire time don't notice until it's in their faces. Hell, I'm sure there have been shifts over the years that I haven't fully noticed or know "the true meaning" behind why it ended up happening the way it did.

But the question has been raised, but I'll try to answer it.

First and foremost - I know the perception that Idol is a place of fiction now. I think that perception is flawed and ignores that there *are* some really talented people doing a combination of different kinds of writing. That's always been the case: from the guy back in 2007 who was doing Youtube videos as his entry (talk about being ahead of that particular curve!) to cartoonists to poets and people who write original songs inspired by each topic. I love the people who do their own thing and I hope that will always not only be a part of the culture, but that it will part of the perception of our culture.

As for "fiction vs non fiction". That debate started back in Season 1. There were people who used their LJ primarily for writing about their every day life and those people were writing a lot of non-fiction for Idol.

There were people who liked writing short stories in their LJs and those people wrote a lot of fiction for Idol.

A non-fiction writer (who ironically is and was more into fiction writing) won Season 1.... a non-fiction writer won Season 2... someone with a pretty good blend of the fiction and non-fiction (but known more for her non IMO) won Season 3.

The fiction writers were gaining ground though. People usually cite Season 5 as the breaking point of fiction, but I think it was probably bettybaker back in Season 3 who was the runner up. (and starting a proud tradition of the fiction writer as coming in second place)

The question was still "can fiction do well?" in Idol, but more and more it was being answered with what the answer always *should* be for any genre or approach: "Yes, if it's done well".

Season 4 everything exploded, on every level and I think people came out of that (myself included) with the "serious about writing" vibe mixed in with the "we're having some fun here".

Season 5 was probably the last great showdown between non-fiction and fiction where non-fiction ended up winning and after that the tide shifted slowly at first and then with a downpour. There have certainly been other internal battles between the sects in later seasons, with various results, but I think that's where it finally tipped.

People see someone being successful and that attracts more people who thought "I wasn't going to sign up, that place doesn't like fiction. But now it does, so I will..." Now it seems we have the other side of the perception problem.

That's internally. From my external standpoint I think that those events coincided with what was happening to Livejournal in general. The more "I want to talk about my life" folks ended up going to other social media outlets.

There were still some left, obviously, but the more LJ tried to compete, the more difficult it was made for them. Because they wanted to talk about their lives, but they didn't want it linked to every other aspect of their social media world and that's where Livejournal was going (and so Idol had to allow it, because you can't opt out even if we wanted to limit exposure)

So even those people were drawn further into the world of writing fiction, because they didn't want to risk their actual lives being exposed to rest of their world.

I'm sure there are a lot of things I'm not thinking of, but that would be my off-the-cuff answer for the morning.

***

What about YOU? Where do you stand on the "fiction vs non-fiction vs everything else" debate? What do you enjoy writing for Idol? What do you find yourself enjoying READING for Idol?

Comments

[ellakite.livejournal.com]

FRIST!

[xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com]

You are, sir!

:throws confetti in lieu of losing her confetti icon:

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

I was definitely one of the voices in that narrative, because so many people weren't talking to each other directly - they were talking (in some cases complaining) to me.

Which is why you'd see me advocating for fiction one day and against it's rise on another. I'd be taking the points people thought weren't being heard and being their voice.

Which you still see happening from time to time. ;)

[ellakite.livejournal.com]

Now that's out of the way:

In past seasons I regularly switched between fiction and non-fiction, and even tried my hand at poetry on occasion. However, in each case the type of piece I wrote was determined by how my muse reacted to the prompt that week. This go around, because the prompts are so specific... well, I'm feeling uninspired. I prefer prompts where I have some "wiggle room" to re-interpret the prompt in my own particular way. This week's set of prompts are so specific in nature that I'm sorely tempted to take a bye...

[xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com]

I almost answered that question in the Work Room: IMO it started veering toward fiction around Season 5-6 which dovetailed with the Advent Of Social Media, aka "don't put anything personal out there".

There's something to be said for creative nonfiction ;)

[xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com]

(oh look she's off from work and it's FREEZING outside so Hi GR, I've missed you!)

Continued from my previous comment...I've dabbled in pure fiction over the years here at Idol and IIRC I've done reasonably well with it, but it's never rung my bells IYKWIM. Nonfiction of all types, OTOH...now THAT rings my bells. It always has. I blame all the cookbooks I read as novels as a kid, LOL.

Everybody has their niche. There are many talented fiction Idolers whose gift for such has always blown me away, and it still does. There are also many talented nonfiction Idolers who do the same.

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

I blame all the cookbooks I read as novels as a kid, LOL.

Hee! So, do you read novels that feature cooking as a plot device? Say, Like Water for Chocolate?

[bleodswean.livejournal.com]

I arrived in S9 via an invite from halfshellvenus who, I thought but could be mistaken, knew me as a fiction writer. Perhaps, though, she saw me as a non-fic blogger. Anyway, I had read a few of her previous season entries and they were fiction so I did that ASS-U-ME thing and got involved with a skewed perception of what Idol was and is.

I was pleasantly surprised to find non-fiction entries!

I prefer reading non-fiction and blog-style writings because I'm pretty interested in human beings and how they think and what interests them and how they perceive the world and their experiences. I can listen to people tell me their "stories" all day and all night long. Especially anecdotes.

But...I don't care to write that sort of thing. I write fiction. I hope I can say that I pen creative fiction. It's what I am educated in, it's what I spend my time doing, it's how I define my experience of this existence. And it's hugely gratifying when readers resonate with my fictional words/worlds. Idol has been an intense experience in regards to reciprocity, encouragement, and inspiration. Because of the diversity of the writers and readers.

I have had a different LJ experience than yours, G. When I signed on 13 years ago it was for fiction and the flist was fiction fiction fiction 24/7. It was a vibrant and exciting time of creativity. I saw a shift a few years after that into blogging and then the bloggers all seemed to go the way of MySpace and then WordPress but the writers stayed here until DW manifested itself in the midst of drama and the writers began to disappear. Of course FB and tumblr decimated the familiar landscape of LJ and I'm not sure what this platform is any more. The only fiction I read on the flist nowadays is primarily when Idol is in an active state. The flist seems to be a kind of mirrored experience of outloud musing about the day.

So, I don't know what my point was....I enjoy reading non-fiction and am glad so many non-fiction writers are here writing. I enjoy writing fiction and am gratified so many readers here want to read fiction.

[xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com]

I prefer reading non-fiction and blog-style writings because I'm pretty interested in human beings and how they think and what interests them and how they perceive the world and their experiences. I can listen to people tell me their "stories" all day and all night long. Especially anecdotes.

:high fives you:

I think this is why I've never been able to get into, say, fantasy. Back when I taught The Hobbit was one of the novels required for the 7th grade. I hadn't read one iota of Tolkien before that and I had to teach it so I spent a good chunk of time reading and researching. I walked away admiring Tolkien for his linguistic gifts but the novel leaving me utterly cold. I had a similar reaction watching Lord of the Rings and Avatar -- beautiful CGI/scenery and I could follow both stories, but I felt no personal connection to any character whatsoever. That never happens in nonfiction, at least to me.

[adoptedwriter.livejournal.com]

I enjoy a mix of both but my own personal skill set is stronger in non-fic. I also like good poetry, rhyming or not that's rich in description and meaning. As long as I feel pulled in and hooked, I like all writing. AW

[majesticarky.livejournal.com]

I have never liked fiction as much as non-fiction. Certain people can write pretty good fiction pieces. I do vote on stand alone pieces sometimes. What I actually don't like at all are the people writing those fiction epics. It seems like we have more and more of them every season. Most of them don't particularly care to adhere to the prompts and they don't really participate in the competition much either. Eh, it's just my gripe, I guess.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

Since I've heard this particular gripe (from other people before) I'll comment. But I'll do it like they are all different gripes rather than connected. ;)



"What I actually don't like at all are the people writing those fiction epics."

I think that a lot of those are intended to be edited into being novels. Idol as NaNoWriMo.

It's certainly an interesting way of going about it. From an audience viewpoint, it's more difficult to get into those - and from a writer standpoint it's easy to forget that not everyone out there is reading every single installment, so they aren't going to care as much about the details on what you are doing over an extended period of time.

It's risky. I've seen them do well, but I've also seen a lot of them flame out.


"It seems like we have more and more of them every season."

For me, it seems more to be the case in full seasons, and the biggest seemed like Season 8. But I could be wrong about that. All these seasons look alike to me. ;)


"Most of them don't particularly care to adhere to the prompts"

I've definitely seen people "pre-load entries" and then try to fit the topic into it. Which I always think of as a mistake.


"and they don't really participate in the competition much either"

If I could force more people into the Green Room, to interact with other contestants - or to comment on other people's work, I would. I try to encourage it as much as I can. But there are just some people who don't want to do it. I think they are cheating themselves out of the full experience, but it's their time and effort.

[tijuanagringo.livejournal.com]

.
I only participated in Idol once before, several years ago. Today, reading this personal reflection from our shepherd clauderainsrm, and the comments from other writers, I must say that this entire subject is a revelation to me. An epiphany, in fact, given to me one day early on the twelfth day of Christmas.
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I had no idea such a paradigm shift (oh look, I finally get to use that term) was underway. As for myself, well, sometimes I directly write true memoirs, sometimes I deliberately write fiction, and often I just write whatever comes out via free association cream of stonkciousness. I love spoonerisms, and that same attitude applies to my opinion regarding the incestuous relationship between fiction and non-fiction. They are "merely" two different sides of the same coin : story writing.
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Anything you write is okay with me as long as I read it and it moves me somewhere.
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At the moment I am re-reading ALAS BABYLON by Pat Frank simply because I have entered the HGTV dream house contest on Merritt Island Florida. Now there is a book I am glad was, and hopefully still is, "only" fiction.
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But . . . .
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I have chosen the dollar and cents topic. I am writing an essay that draws on my personal memories of what I paid for things when I was 15 years old in 1965. It is, most properly and generically, a piece of non-fiction.
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IMO
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;-)
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[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

"I only participated in Idol once before, several years ago."

Now you are going to make me check aren't you? Because that doesn't feel accurate.

*To me*, you are a staple. Maybe not someone who shows up every single time - but I always look forward to you being here. And I know that I've had that "Awesome! He's back!" more than the initial time.

[dmousey.livejournal.com]

I joined last year when Theun4givables tagged me in. I'm a fiction writer, who dabbles. I have no idea about what the readers (authors) prefer, and does it really matter if you're writing the best you can? If we start worrying about whether fiction or non-fiction will win more votes isn't that more likely to stifle some participants?

I wrote more non-fiction last year, than in entire life! I tend to fictionalize my RL stories, because they are less traumatizing to me that way, and they're a source of therapy.

[ellison.livejournal.com]

I tend to fictionalize my RL stories, because they are less traumatizing to me that way, and they're a source of therapy.

I get that and have written that way for that reason before too. It helps! Writing is pretty magical and transformative that way.

[muchtooarrogant.livejournal.com]

I think you're right, the perception now definitely seems to be that Idol is a place where fiction does better than nonfiction. In fact, a friend I tried to recruit for this season said precisely that, "But I don't write fiction ..."

To me, the fiction verses nonfiction debate has always been amusing--not because I'm laughing at anyone here, but because, as so often happens, I'm laughing at myself. When I first started writing for Idol in Season 8, I knew "exactly" what I was going to do. "I'm going to write fiction for EVERY entry. I like telling stories, and am not really interested in any of that nonfiction stuff."

What happened? I ended up writing 19 entries in season 8 before being eliminated, and 10 of those--I went back and counted this morning--were nonfiction. I didn't go back and look at polls, but I clearly remember, because I was surprised, how well a lot of the nonfiction entries did.

So far, other than my week 0.5 entry, this season's entries have been fiction, but I'm not foolish enough now to make any predictions. I'll just write what comes to me, and of course, hope that a few of you like it. :)

Dan

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

"the perception now definitely seems to be that Idol is a place where fiction does better than nonfiction. In fact, a friend I tried to recruit for this season said precisely that, "But I don't write fiction ..."

I've not only heard that from people who have heard about Idol, I've heard that from people who *have played Idol before*.

[tjoel2]

That's definitely an interesting question and one that have given some thought to prior to now. I tend to use my LiveJournal as a journal, to record my life, processes, and thoughts. What I have written for Idol is a combination of fiction and non-fiction however.

I actually enjoy reading it all! Particularly the more unusual entries, the poetry, the music, the video entries. That's what makes this sort of thing wonderful: everyone is welcome!

[gratefuladdict.livejournal.com]

I think another reason for the rise of fiction in the competition was that as people became part of the community and started coming back for multiple seasons, many probably felt like they were running out of personal stories that they wanted to share with the Idolverse at large (especially since there is now overlap with sites like Facebook, to Kizzy's point).

I don't write nonfiction for Idol often these days, and when I do, it usually centers around one of just a few themes in my life. So I often opt not to write the nonfiction because I don't want to be the contestant who is always talking about her autistic kid, or her dead dad, or her past drug addiction.

I don't have a definite preference between reading fiction or nonfiction. Like you, I just want it to be good. I want it to reach me emotionally on some level, and I want to find it believable, even if it's fiction. I love that the rise of fiction in Idol has encouraged many previously nonfic writers to try something new, and stretch, and take a risk. It's scary, but it can be so rewarding.

[ellison.livejournal.com]

I don't have a definite preference between reading fiction or nonfiction. Like you, I just want it to be good. I want it to reach me emotionally on some level, and I want to find it believable, even if it's fiction.

Very much this! I feel the same way!

[halfshellvenus.livejournal.com]

I tend to write more fiction, but like ellakite... I'll go with whatever seems to work best with the prompt for me. I.e., the best story and not the best "approach."

I joined LJ mainly to read (and then write) fan-fiction. It was months before I realized anyone might be interested in my non-fic ramblings, at which point I started using it to blog as well.

Having been here since S8, I think S9 had the greatest number of ongoing story epics as entries. I'm not usually a big fan of those either. If I don't happen to like the universe/characters/etc. the author is working with, I really don't want to see it week after week!

As for reading... I like both the fiction and non-fiction entries. My preference is for a good story, always. :)

[orockthro.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to read the shift and people's opinions of it! I joined up (at the request... *cough* coercion) of one of my teammates, so this is my first experience with idol, and in fact the first I've heard of it. I dropped off LJ a few years ago almost completely, one of the many who did go in that exodus.

So far one piece I've written has been non fiction, and the rest fiction. Honestly, I'm just trying to write. XD If something needs to get out of me, I'm not going to stop it, and I will take whatever path makes it the easiest to do so.
I'm also here to have fun! And fiction, for me, is way more fun to write. Non fiction (at least in a memoir style) is mostly me Dealing With My Shit and sometimes airing my private hurts for all of idol to view isn't something I want to do. Ya'll are lovely <3 It's just that sometimes bearing my soul in sci fi is more productive for me. Idol is an amazing challenge for forcing fiction writers to stay sharp and stay creative (and write sometimes very personal things at the same time)

[gratefuladdict.livejournal.com]

You make a great point - those of us who write primarily fiction tend to put a lot of ourselves into those stories, even if it isn't obvious.

I have seen comments many times in Idol that some people don't want to get invested in reading someone's fiction, because they're here to build community and make friends and care about people, and they aren't going to put that energy into someone's fictional characters and plots when there are real people and lives to learn about instead.

[murielle.livejournal.com]

I'm terrified of writing a non-fiction piece. But I didn't enter idol to be a chicken, so I will give it a shot. I will cringe and groan, I may even throw something (light and soft like a cushion, but with great passion) and I will have to pick it up myself. But I will attempt the non-fiction thing because everything is new an challenging to me anyway, so what's the diff, right?

I think I'm over it.

[muchtooarrogant.livejournal.com]

That's it exactly, it's the challenge that's important. RE what I said above, I REALLY didn't want to write nonfiction, but then a prompt Gary gave us in season 8 fit so perfectly, and I did it, and it wasn't as awful as I was afraid it would be, and ...

Now, what I also did in season 8 that was loads of fun was begin a piece in first person, specifically talking about how I loved playing hide-and-go-seek as a child, and then gradually introduced a twist where the main character was possessed by an evil shadow creature. One of my commenters even said that they, despite appearances, were going to assume that I hadn't been possessed. LOL Ah, how little they know.

So, whatever you do, make it fun!

Dan

[yachiru]

When I started Idol I definitely got the feeling that the more personal nonfiction entries were the norm. But I've never been one for confessional pieces (at least not intentionally) so I made up weird shit and hoped to stay in past the first vote. >_>

[xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com]

Thinky thoughts in no particular order as I sit here in my metaphorical rocking chair:

1. As social media has suppposedly killed LJ as we've always known it, there's also a backlash against said social media. I've got people on my FL who have returned to LJ (some being ex-Idolers), and they're people I never thought would return because they've got a huge online presence elsewhere. Maybe things aren't as bad as we collectively think.

2. Time factors matter more now than ever. Desktops and laptops are going the way of the dinosaur for general online communication. I've known people in past seasons who've written entries on their phone! I personally can't conceive of that, but YMMV :shrug:

3. If you want to write, WRITE! Whether it's zombie fiction, creative nonfiction, fantasy, poetry, screenplays, tentacle p0rn, fanfic, whatever -- just do it! The more you do something, the better you become. I'm not sure how tentacle p0rn would play here in Idol, but given that yachiru writes weirdly wonderful fiction and does quite well every season...well, that says something :)

4. Returning to #1 for a second -- we all have varying degrees of wanting to share. Those of us who came to LJ from RL social isolation, I think, are more adamant about getting to know others than those who are here primarily to write. Times change, though, and once you regain footing in RL you no longer need that online support. I know quite a few ex-Idolers who fit that bill.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

I'm 98% certain there has been tentacle porn in a previous season. I'm just blanking out on who it was or when. But it was definitely there.

[ellison.livejournal.com]

This is a fascinating conversation and love reading it! I'm still so new that I'm tempted to be a lurker (only my second season playing), but I keep trying to tell myself to just talk here too and stop being such a shy n00b. But anyway I like reading what you all have to say so much. These threads have been awesome, because I don't know much at all of the history of LJ Idol. I have been on LJ for years and years though, started in 2001. And I've always just blogged here, and was surprised there was a fiction element, discovered through friends who were into fanfic, which was cool. Joining this, I just thought it was a fiction competition in general and was glad to see lots of kinds of entries once I got reading, fiction and non-. I tend to write whatever comes to me, and am glad there's so much room for variety here, and so many talented folks I enjoy reading. I am very interested to see what this week's prompts bring out of the contestants!

[dmousey.livejournal.com]

I'm with you! I'm a lurker! The variety and richness of writing within this community is phenomenal. It has helped me improve my own craft, and I've met some wonderful people from all walks of life. Totally worth it- fiction or non.

[kathrynrose.livejournal.com]

I've always attributed the shift from non to fiction to the heavy recruiting (somewhere in the vicinity of Season 5) of participants from the fanfic communities.

It's been said before - the atmosphere in Idol is dependent upon who shows up.

[tonithegreat.livejournal.com]

This is all fascinating! And inspiring. And I really wish there were more hours in the day to participate more in this convo. I feel like idollers have particularly interesting thoughts about identity and social media and how best to mix and arch them with this here contest.

I also thinks who authentically mix themselves into their entries, regardless of genre do the best here.

[kickthehobbit.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised to see so many people talking about how they prefer nonfiction. It might be due to the self-selection of the Green Room and who's commenting, but (at least at this point), the people writing fiction seem to have been favored in the polls. So why this response?

We talk about wanting to "know the writer", and how we can't do that through fiction. I'd take that argument and refine it: we can't "know the writer" through bad fiction. If a piece works—if it's decently written, if it makes sense, if it's paced well and the plot takes a good direction—there's nothing there to prevent us from "knowing" the writer.

I joke a lot about how it's very obvious when something is mine, and friends that I have written with have rolled their eyes and made the comment that you can always tell because of specific plot elements, or turns of phrase, or the way that events play out. I'd argue that's standard. Writing is personal. Your life starts coloring your fiction, even if you don't think it will, even if you are trying to obscure who you are. There are always tells. That's neither a good nor a bad thing: it's something that is, and it's something that exists as you try to grow and change as a writer. There will always be something to mark the story as being yours, even if other parts are different.

I have always been able to tell when friends have written under alts, if only because there are specific things they do that give them away. We get to know the person in that way—through their writing and what they're like as a writer, and that is what Idol is about, to me—getting to know people, getting to know their writing, enjoying both relationships.

I say all of this as someone who has written nonfiction and seen it do decently. I say this as someone who enjoys nonfiction. Nonfiction gives you the facts. Maybe it's embroidered and maybe it's not, but it's still a story, and you may not get to know the writer any more through it than through fiction.

Personally, I feel that you get to know more of me through interacting with me about my fiction. You could probably make some very good assumptions as to what I'm like just through reading it. The fiction I write, whether for Idol or not, is pretty carefully thought out: I want things to make sense, I want plot elements to be clear, I want the piece to stand on its own and be an enjoyable read. I'd like to think that you get to know more of me just by looking at what I pick to write about—the relationships between the characters, the subject matter, what's driving the plot—those are all things that I spend a lot of time thinking about, beyond just basic characterization and "how to get the story from point A to point B", and I know how certain parts must reflect on me.

I've never personally felt that there's a benefit to doing fiction or nonfiction—but I came in during Season 8, which seems to have been well after the fiction/nonfiction war was fought and settled.

Sometimes I read nonfiction that someone has written, and I find myself asking, "why did you write this?" But I ask the same thing about fiction, too. That's a fundamental question that a piece should answer, if it is going to work as it is.

For every complaint I've had about fiction, I've had the same about nonfiction: that people "prewrite" or try to shoehorn pieces into fitting the prompt, that we're expected to remember details from week to week as people do serials...there's always someone that has written something that doesn't work for me. And that's okay.

I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer for Idol. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about writing fiction or nonfiction.

Idol has always been about writing and getting to know one another in the context of writing. Fiction or nonfiction both present that opportunity.

[alycewilson.livejournal.com]

I actually joined Idol back in Season 5 because of a friend of mine who's a skilled poet. She wrote mostly nonfiction and was cut the week she wrote a particularly dense poem (which I thought was quite good). So I'm glad to see that poetry is no longer "the kiss of death" on Idol, especially since I write poetry, as well.

Primarily, I tell people that I'm a poet. humorist and essayist, but I have expanded beyond my comfort zone into fiction, as well. This season, not counting my intro, I've written two fiction pieces and a poem. For me, coping with my Mom's death, it was helpful to talk about things from a more distant POV.

I will read and enjoy any genre, provided that it is well-written and addresses the topic in some way.

[lordrexfear.livejournal.com]

Man, this is a green room of quality indeed.

Lots to look and look over. As fascinating as Idol itself.

(as an aside, I've discovered that now that I have so many social outlets, finding time to do nothing but read LJ has gotten really hard).

I think in my time of LJ I've been what one would consider mostly non-fiction but I KNOW I've delved into the fiction. Usually when I go places that are just absolutely insane and wacky. I'm still shocked and upset nothing came to me during the holidays for something like that.

Although this week's topics are so perfect for my main style of writing. So the fun will be in how do I truly explain.

Looking at the past of LJ though... I think I;ve loved everything. While I personally now relate to non-fiction work more since I'm just REALLY picky with fiction. Still good fiction will pull me in. Non-fiction I find easier to read but I'm more critical of and get my juices going, good fiction I just enjoy and since I do so much reviewing in my regular life I never know what to say other than "I liked this". Which I think is what I only ever had the problem with the fiction entries, they don't IMO allow for much interaction/conversation because it's more subjective then op-ed.

[xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com]

Things I Love About Idol, Part 200:

The fact that I can return to this particular GR at 3-something AM the next day and find conversation still going on.

:)