Green Room - Week 11 - Day 3

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

Thank you for all the comments yesterday! I wanted to follow up on a couple of conversations, with some points that occurred to me, but decided to make it a new Green Room instead! :)

Before I do, it was nice to actually confirm the existence of sra33 last night! I got to meet Goofy, and there was also a Disney character present!

Also, there is a new topic due tomorrow: http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/639904.html so make sure to stay on top of that!

***

- There is of course the traditional "People are being more successful with fiction these days". I'm not sure what to say about that, other than when you see quality non-fiction, make a point of supporting it and spreading the word. That, and write more good non-fiction! It's the surest way of having more non-fiction around! :)

- The "Second Chance Idol curse" - A long time ago, there was the dreaded "birthday curse". For some reason, whenever there was a poll that occurred around the same time as someone's birthday, they were eliminated. I'm sure it was coincidence, but much like when it used to happen on Survivor, it was definitely "a thing". Now there's a "SCI curse", that no one has ever won who came into the competition from SCI. Oddly enough, there have been people who have gotten into the finals. So, while this is definitely more of an actual thing (There are a couple people who have been quite vocal about the idea of "If it comes down to someone who has been in the competition since Day 1, and one who hasn't, I'm going to favor the one who has been working at it longer".), I'm not sure that it's as widespread as some people would say it was. It's much closer to the "veteran curse", where a newbie always won the season - until a veteran won. Or the "male curse", where women always ended up dominating, until... well, OK, that curse is still valid! ;)

- Crowdfunding and pimping - I put them together, because I think they are closely related. You have something you believe in, and want people to invest in it. Maybe it's a vote, and maybe it's some money. It's the same principle. You have to make sure you have something *worth their attention* and if you go to the well too often, you are going to end up with backlash. It's all about putting out the best thing you possibly can, and knowing that the answer is, more often than not, going to be "no". I *do* think there is a generational component to it, the same way I see a lot of new bands crowdfunding their albums to get around the traditional record label structure, I see the future of publishing, and booksellers/distribution going in the same direction. Good thing? Bad thing? Probably a little of both.

Comments

[roina-arwen.livejournal.com]

First? Maybe? Yay!

I think the SCI thing makes sense to me - if there's a virtual tie in all other respects, seniority wins.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

It does make sense. Everyone is going to have their personal tie-breakers in a case of "all things being equal". People have their own tastes, and way of looking at things, that you can make guesses at figuring out, but are ultimately wild cards.

I can also see the other side, of why it would suck to be on the wrong side of it.

[roina-arwen.livejournal.com]

Woo, FIRST! Man you rock this GR!

[roina-arwen.livejournal.com]

Man it's quiet in here - everybody must be sleeping in! I just finished brunch at O'Charleys with my hubby and BFF - yum! Not sure what is on tap for the rest of the day other than reading and maybe laundry, whee.

[impoetry.livejournal.com]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past, hasn't SCI been a secondary competition where people who hadn't been in the main game could come out and play?

Vs. this season where the only people in SCI were people banished from the main game?

If that's the case, the members of this season's SCI (including me!) have really been playing the game the whole time. We just had a different set of topics.

I think crowdfunding is cool and will lead to a lot of independent entertainment, outside of corporate control.

But I too saw the correlation to pimping for votes, and should have mentioned it when we had a pretty intense Crowdfunding discussion on FB the other night. :) If you believe in your work, it's totally acceptable to promote it. But you def don't want to wear out your welcome either. That's some tight-rope walking there!

Have a great Wrestlemania day everyone!

[kandigurl.livejournal.com]

I was making an effort to ask for votes as little as possible. I did it more toward the end, and actually I did it less out of a desire for more votes, and more out of courtesy for people who may want to vote for me but aren't paying super close attention to when the polls are up. I also don't think that many people still read my LJ, so I didn't feel too bad. I went to Facebook once, I consider that the lowest I dipped in the vote-funding barrel. ;)

Crowdfunding, however, if it's an artist I love, I'm always in support of. Crowdfund every project, I don't care!

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

Not wanting to wear out my welcome is why I'm so hesitant about pimping. I do it when I feel I'm at the greatest level of danger. I want it to remain an effective tool for me when I really need it. :)

I'm sure that attitude will bite me in the butt, because I may be TOO hesitant to pimp when I really need to. ;)

[roina-arwen.livejournal.com]

You wrote: but in the past, hasn't SCI been a secondary competition where people who hadn't been in the main game could come out and play?

If I recall correctly, it was often a mix of a) people who hadn't been in the main comp; b) people who got voted out of the main comp early on or Byed out / missed deadlines, and c) people who missed the original sign up deadline for the main comp but wanted a chance to play.

[whipchick.livejournal.com]

There's a nice discussion still going on in yesterday's GR (disclosure: I'm in it) about the crowdfunding/pimping issue.

Gary, you make a great point:

It's all about putting out the best thing you possibly can, and knowing that the answer is, more often than not, going to be "no".

The points that seem to trip people up the most are:

1) Misjudging the quality level of their product, usually through inexperience--either being new or not having put in as much time as they think they have and/or not seeking input from people who can give critical feedback rather than supportive niceness; see also Dunning-Kruger Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect).

2) Going to the well too often and exhausting their social capital. Even the Girl Scouts divide up the neighborhoods so that no-one gets too many rounds of "wanna buy my cookies?". I'll suggest that everyone, in their lifetime, gets ONE "My house burned down and I'm dying of cancer, please help me," (preferably sponsored by a friend rather than the charity recipient themselves) and ONE "I have this terrific project, are you interested in buying in?" and everything else has to be dealt with by earning it or going through the traditional channels of saving money, applying for grants or business loans, working one's way up from the bottom, etc. (I may have cheated by going on reality TV, but the second time on reality TV was so dreadful I think karma was evening out the first win).

3) Being too thin-skinned. This may be the most damaging, as constant appeals to one's friends/acquaintances start to feel both like whining and like the product doesn't stand on its own, so the would-be-recipient is forced to trade on friendship and guilt instead of quality.

[cacophonesque.livejournal.com]

1) Thank you for linking that wikipedia entry! That's really fascinating and I didn't realize that something I'd sort of observed as part of life had actually been studied to such a degree. Yes--I think this is something that I was getting at in my comment below (which I was writing while you posted yours, I suppose).

2) YES! When people are repeatedly going to the well, it does beg the question of "How come you didn't make better use of your last fundraiser? I think that a lot of people in the arts who end up successful aren't just artists, but also people with keen business sense (or alternately, people who recognize the importance of the business side of things and find someone skilled on that side who can help them). If you've got an amazing product, you should be confident that if you front the money to make it a reality, you'll recoup that cost once you put the product on the market. If you aren't sure you can make enough sales to cover the cost of production, then you really need to look inside yourself and ask if what you've got really is as amazing as you claim it is.

2a) You were on reality TV?!?! I had no idea.

3) AMEN.

[kandigurl.livejournal.com]

Man, I am guilty of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. I like to think I am less guilty of it these days, but I don't think it's true. When I start something new, I'm like, "GUYS CHECK OUT MY AMAZING THING IT'S AMAZING YOU GUYS." And I definitely assume people know more about the crafts I am competent in. Like when I make a hoop, I'm sure people are going to see where the tape buckles or where it's not lined up properly, and instead they're like, "LOOK AT THAT AMAZING THING IT'S AMAZING."

[roina-arwen.livejournal.com]

That Dunning-Kruger thing explains a lot about the individuals who try out for American Idol but can't carry a tune in a bucket and apparently can't hear themselves either!

[porn-this-way.livejournal.com]

. I'll suggest that everyone, in their lifetime, gets ONE "My house burned down and I'm dying of cancer, please help me," (preferably sponsored by a friend rather than the charity recipient themselves) and ONE "I have this terrific project, are you interested in buying in?"

Soooo much this. I was trying to say this last night in the GR but was too exhausted and incoherent, but basically - I remember being in a fandom about a decade ago, perhaps a little less, and someone in the fandom started asking for donations to fund some personal thing (that wasn't an unforeseeable medical emergency or whatnot), and it caused a fandom-wide scandal. Here and now, nobody'd bat an eye. Having been on Ell Jay since 2001, I've seen the rise of this trend, and honestly? It seems like a lot of times, it's the same people asking over and over again, and sometimes, it just gets damn annoying. If you've got a medical emergency that comes out of nowhere and your insurance company's fucking you over, or your neighbor's house got broken into and they stole the computer she needs to make her livelihood and you're trying to help her get a new one - that, I 100% sympathize with. Ditto an instance of "I've been working my ass off to start this new business, and I've done all the prep work and heavy lifting and everything else, and I just need a little boost to help get it off the ground" - okay, great. But when I read the same shit from the same people time after time, and every single instance seems to boil down to "I'm irresponsible with money and I have no idea what I want to do with my life, so please bail me out again and\or give me cash to fund my latest flight of fancy or help me do this thing I didn't bother trying to plan ahead for because I figured I could just get the intarwebz to foot the bill"... that shit lights me up. There's a huge difference between "life knocked me down and kicked me while I was there" or "I've been busting my ass to get this once-in-a-lifetime thing to work out" and "I want (or worse yet, expect) my f'list to subsidize my personal irresponsibility and lack of planning."

(Sorry for all the edits! Typing on tablets + me = fail)

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

This thread is what made me nervous about having a donation attached to this mini-season.

There were some people who went "Not a problem" and others who seemed offended that what they had been getting for free since 2006 might cost them something.

I'll admit, that the second group did make me question if I *should* be giving them anything in the future, since they didn't the time and effort was anything all that special. Then again, there are plenty of people who did. So... *shrug*

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

This isn't so much a response to just this GR post but a lot of things I read in yesterday's GR, too. I have been apparently holding this in and it needs to come out, lol.

I'm not a big fan of crowdfunding, personally. I like them in theory, but I want to put in all of the work first. I know that I'm down 2 first drafts, need to finish a third, and then have to go through the pain of second drafts and the like. My husband has been a huge help -- the story really is a political drama in theory, and naturally, I am not an extremely politically minded person. But his input has pushed several changes and a stronger over all plot across all three books. That's pretty fucking important, if you ask me.

As a member of the generation so many of you are quick to call out for their laziness or who are wrapped up in an instant feedback loop and want the praise without doing any of the work -- please, we're not all that way. We're not all so entitled and it bugs me that the older members of the Idol crowd are so quick to lump people within a certain age group into this stereotype. Are there a lot of people my age and younger who feel that they deserve the whole world to be fucking handed to them? Sure. I could argue that there are people of ALL ages who are like this, who don't want to put in the hard work and effort to get the things they feel that they "deserve."

I get annoyed with the fiction vs. non-fiction debate, because I've ALWAYS felt that my non-fiction does way better than my fiction, for the most part. I think the only one that didn't do "better" than my fiction pieces was the one I wrote two weeks ago -- but that was arguably one of my weaker pieces this season. Solid structure and writing is solid structure and writing no matter whether it's fiction or nonfiction, and that's what I go by. I like it when people showcase their skills -- when people make me feel things with their writing. If you can't move me with your nonfiction, chances are that you might not be able to move me with your fiction, either.

Good writing is good writing, period. With this mini-season, people do seem to be favoring fiction. It also STARTED with way more fiction than s8 did. With 1/3 the starting contestants and a large portion of them being newcomers, this doesn't surprise me. I'm sure in s9 there will be a larger balance between nonfiction and fiction. I like writing both. Writing both has served me well, actually. Idol really is what you make it out to be. Gary has always said that and I firmly believe that.

Now I'm gonna go be ornery somewhere else. /done

[n3m3sis43.livejournal.com]

So agree. I will vouch for your not-slackerness. And while I do think you're mature compared to other people your age (including me at 25), I don't think this whole "young people are slackers" is a new phenomenon.

Doesn't anyone my age remember GenX being called the "Slacker Generation"? Because, uhhhh, I'm pretty sure those "slackers" are the ones calling today's "kids" a bunch of entitled hacks.

I'm pretty sure something similar happened in the 60's, too. But I wasn't born yet then. And if I had been, I'm sure I wouldn't remember it because of all the acid I'd have been doing. Sorry, folks.

[cacophonesque.livejournal.com]

I've been really caught up in the discussion of crowdfunding and self-promotion and the like. While I'm not particularly interested at this time in trying to publish my own writing, I'm very interested in the process and would love to get more involved with helping other people to get published. Several seasons ago there was a discussion where Tea brought up the notion that some people are really amazing on the writing side and some people are amazing on the editorial side--and they don't always overlap and that's not a bad thing. I still think about that sometimes. I think I'm a pretty good writer--but I think I'm a much better reader. Reading is what I've been trained in, after all.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with your observation that what you have needs to be worth their attention. And also about going to the well too often. Along with that, I'd add that if your neighbor just went to the well and nearly drained it, that you might want to wait until the next rain shower before you head over. To borrow from my theater background--It's all in the timing.

I think that the good thing is that it allows for more diversity of voices to be heard. There are a lot of niches that get overlooked by traditional publishing venues. I think that the downside is that people look at it as a means to instant gratification, which leads to a degradation of quality. (And this isn't just a commentary on crowdfunded projects, it's also a commentary on self published works and friend published works). And, for anyone who does ultimately decide to go that route, for the love of all that is holy, budget for a &$(%@#)$(*$!!!!! editor. And no, I don't mean someone who is always telling you how awesome you are and loves your work. I mean someone who you know has the proverbial balls to red pen the shit out of your manuscript. And who will do it multiple times over the course of multiple drafts.

I used to proof read papers for my friends in college. Most of them only asked me once, because they said that I corrected to much. By "too much" they meant that I pointed out all of their typos, all of their punctuation errors, all of their sentence fragments, all of their arguments that were unsupported by any evidence. What they had been looking for was someone who would read it over and tell them it was fine. Because they'd already put in the effort to write it and they wanted to be done. Fair enough. I mean, we were college students and we had a lot of work to do for multiple classes. But, if they had actually been hoping to submit any of those papers for publication? Or as writing samples for grad school applications? Well... that would have been the stupidest move ever. (One big reason I don't want to try publishing my writing is because I'm one of those people who just wants to pound out a piece and be done with it. The process of refining it, reworking it, repeated drafts... UGH! But, see, I'm wise enough to know myself.)

[theun4givables.livejournal.com]

Niches getting overlooked is part of why I've considered (and still am considering) the self-publishing route. However, I won't be looking into that real in-depth until I think my work is polished enough. Right now, I know it isn't. You can't get any first-drafty than what I have, right now.

Would I ever think of crowdfunding my trilogy? Hah, the thought never crossed my mind and even now that it has I'm like "Eh." Because self-publishing exists and I do want to try my hand at actually marketing my material to publishing houses and the like, too. I want that experience. It'll only make me a stronger salesperson as well as a writer, at the end.

But I like my instant feedback and "atta boy" comments just as much as everyone else. ;) I will continue posting my first drafts online as I progress through the editing because I want that immediate feedback and I won't even fool myself into thinking someone would buy my first passes at story telling ever.

There's a reason why I pound a thing out and then leave it alone for forever because the mistakes and the changes I know I need to make fester in the back of my brain until I am actually ready to attack it. Unfortunately for my Idol pieces, I don't ever have enough time for that to happen. Oops.

[zephyrly.livejournal.com]

This season of LJI actually started on (or very close to) my birthday. So, I don't really believe in the birthday curse.

[comedychick.livejournal.com]

I've supported a lot of crowdfunding projects over the last couple of years. I keep supporting them - I think I'm at over 30 now. But I am actually quite picky about what I choose to support. I need to see that the project has been really thought out and has gone through as much of the process as it can before asking for funding. I'm more likely to back film projects with large crews because they seem less likely to fail - more people pushing to make it happen and make it be the best it can be. But anything that I can see a lot have thought AND effort has already gone into it.

The other thing is it has to generally be something I might ordinarily be interested in. A genre I like, or supporting a cause I believe in, that sort of thing. If it's music, I need samples and I need to like it. I do sometimes worry when I've backed all these other things what some friends might think if I don't support their crowdfunding things too, but I try not to guilt trip myself into it if it's not the sort of thing I would ordinarily support. And I hope that my friends feel the same way about my projects - I don't want them to feel guilty if it's not their sort of thing, or for whatever reason they want to support me but can't at this time.

It's funny but I think I've been more disappointed that I couldn't get more people interested in things I support by other people than I have been about friends not being interested in my own things.

[kathrynrose.livejournal.com]

Oh, sure, trot out the birthday curse three days before my birthday. Thanks, Gary. :P

[porn-this-way.livejournal.com]

Posting on the run and from phone, so plz pardon any ridiculous typos or other autocorrect fuckery.

The SCI thing - I never for the life of me understood why that even remotely mattered. I say this as someone who participated the "traditional, in from day 1" way but also watched someone I respect the hell out of as a writer catch several pieces of "you're pretty good...for someone who came in through SCI" flack and, well, I think it's a load of shit. The way I see it, SCI is its own unique challenge, and actually seems harder in a couple of ways. People who are in from day 1 - all we had to do was not get voted out. AND we had two byes that were good until the Top 100, which is about when SCI ended anyway. People from SCI, however, had to top the polls or it was "tough shit, bye bye!" once SCI was over. So basically, the way I saw it was this: those of us going the traditional route were taking the staircase, slowly and carefully, with a banister on both sides, until we hit the top 100. SCI people? They had to Superman in through the window, sans any safety net, and they only had a few weeks to get it perfect or GTFO, whereas the rest of us had months to find our footing and get our balance before the competition really heated up. And that's another thing that puts SCI peeps at a disadvantage - they're new kids on the scene, where as the Day 1 crowd has had months to make connections and establish some name recognition. I admire the fuck out of people who claw their way in through SCI, and while the initial SCI path is different from the initial Day 1 path, the paths converge at the Top 100, which is where the real fuckery starts anyway (intersections, game twists, multiple and curveball topics, multiple and curveball polls), and anyone who survives that shit should get to say they survived that shit, regardless of how they got to that shit in the first place. Now if SCI let you skip all the craziness and somehow deposited you in the Top 10 or some shit - okay, that would be a different matter entirely. But as is? We're all thrown into the same damn gladiator arena, and whether you take the stairs there or swing in through the window, we're all about to face down the same damn shitstorm of twists, turns, and Gary being a sadistic tool. So while there are a lot of things to use as tiebreakers or possibly even reasons to withhold votes in general, SCI is one that I simply don't comprehend.

[talon.livejournal.com]

I will say that I've seen a lot of absolutely tremendous fiction writing this season, and I'm really glad for it. Not that non-fiction isn't good, but I <3 my fellow fiction writers.

[applespicy.livejournal.com]

Me, too! I naturally prefer fiction to nonfiction, so I'm happy to have seen so much fabulous fiction writing this time around.

[applespicy.livejournal.com]

I am continually torn on the pimping/crowdfunding issue. On the one hand, I come from a very YOU GET WHAT YOU EARN AND NOTHING MORE upbringing, and I do feel much more accomplished when I "make it on my own" in Idol (though really, none of us really makes it on our own in this game, do we?) than when I ask for votes. I only asked for votes twice this season, and even then I feel a bit ashamed of it, like if my work really mattered I wouldn't have had to do that to stay in.

At the same time, I'm incredibly competitive and ambitious, and part of being successful is talking yourself up - basically in every realm of life. We do it in job interviews, when starting relationships, making friends... all the time!

So it's tough. If I ask for help, does that mean I don't really deserve what I get, even if I really believe that I do deserve it?

Meh. NAVEL GAZE SUNDAY.

[impoetry.livejournal.com]

I don't know. The way I see, what does it say about my writing if I don't tell people about it? Do I think it's not good enough?

I've learned that Idol is a social game, not a writing contest. Being social is a lot tougher than writing to me. :)

[porn-this-way.livejournal.com]

Random shit in this GR I haven't bitched about yet, so will do so here:

Pimping: I think that's just part of the game, and as someone who had LJI peeps on her f'list before she had any idea WTF LJI even was: the reaction I had to "plz vote for me" posts (for LJI or any other contest) and "plz give me money" posts was night and friggen day. It costs me nothing to tick a box, ya know? Forking over cash, however...not so much. That being said, I loathe the idea of LJI being more of a pimp competition than a writing competition, but I think it's more of a "Wtf, are you batshit insane for signing up for this thing in the first place?!" competition than anything else. Pimping as a way to stay in Idol is something I've had mixed feelings about from the getgo, and secretly, I wished nobody did it, but if other people are gonna do it, you bet your sweet ass I'm gonna do it too, and it *does* help Idol in the long run I think, because all of us desperate freaks pimping and flailing like mad to keep ourselves alive = advertisement for Idol = more people play = Idol stays alive = good.

Fiction vs Non-fic: One of my fave things about Idol is that anything goes, and aside from flat-out plagiarism or poll-rigging, there *is* no way to "do it wrong." Personally, I prefer writing non-fiction, and if it ever got to the point where it felt like fiction was the only acceptable type of post, that's one of the few things that would probably get me to stop competing for good, just because I don't really enjoy writing fiction on a regular basis. That being said, I don't think fiction (or poetry, or anything else) should be considered unwelcome just by virtue of being what it is, because a shitty entry and an awesome entry can both take many, many forms. So as for fiction vs non-fiction...yes to both, and "hell no" to either being a "hell no."

[applespicy.livejournal.com]

I wished nobody did it, but if other people are gonna do it, you bet your sweet ass I'm gonna do it too

That's basically how I feel. If I knew nobody else was doing it, obviously I wouldn't do it either. But if everyone else has an edge... I should get one, too! LOL.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

I can't find the place where I wanted to comment, so I'll do it down here. Besides, I think it's something worthy of it's own thread:

There is a difference between "self published" and "small press" that I think a lot of people miss. Self published reminds me of my old zine days. Small press is more like the old pulp publishers. You are going to see some that are good, some bad, and a lot in between.

The major publishers do their thing, but I think that many of them are still trying to figure out how to stay in the game with the shift toward digital. Small press outfits, by their nature, is a niche market. I think people do themselves a disservice when they forget that, rather than embracing it.

If you have something that is going to be your career break-through, by all means, that is something you should be shopping to the majors.

If you have something that you want to be out there, but know that it's not going to shake anything up, there is nothing wrong with considering a small press publisher if you think that they can help you reach that niche market who would be looking for what you are offering.

[ashgaelsonaria.livejournal.com]

I am uncertain about pimping stuff.
I am not a salesperson - at lest not a good one. I cant even sell my own stuff be it writing or art.
I do sometimes think that I may well be a jinx. It seams like there are always people I voted for on the list.
Beyond that I have not really done hg as my peripherals have gone awol.
Ok my children broke their keyboard and mouse and obsconded with mine so I am doing everything by kindle until I can replace them.
Not this month however as I had to spend 133 on furniture (adjustable bed and dresser) and another large sum on tools for a bit of spiritual work for a freand.