[identity profile] clauderainsrm.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] therealljidol
I feel like I’ve stepped into a rabbit hole that doesn’t go down, it just turns into an ouroboros.

A couple hours ago, I was blissfully ignorant that there was anything in existence called a “Readercon”, and Genevieve Valentine and Rene Walling were just two more names that I had never heard mentioned before, on what I assume is probably a long list of “people who do stuff that I had no idea about”. Honestly, I still have very little idea of what they do, other than one makes LJ posts, and the other sexually harass people.

Apparently, it’s a big thing in a small circle of the people who actually know what any of this is about. That circle reached me due to my checking the Idol Friends Page tonight. I’m sure there were mentions about it before, but this was the first time that I’d heard any of the names or the situations.

Which makes me highly qualified to discuss it! ;)

Actually, I’m not going to, other than to say “Wow” to everything about that.. it does bring up some interesting questions (to me) about power structures of groups involved in decision making and the role of rehabilitation versus punishment as it pertains to the big picture, and the more immediate one.

I’ve been fortunate to only have been in a position to put a permanent ban on a handful of individuals. Most of them are fake accounts. So it’s not like a banned an actual person in the process, so even those numbers are deceptive!

In most cases, I’ve found that taking the rehabilitation route to work best: Bringing people around to, if not “my way of thinking”, then at very least to a “place where they can interact with other people in a semi-civilized fashion”!

There have been some people who I didn’t think could be redeemed. Or at least, not anytime soon. Maybe, eventually, they could be... which is why it’s always a good thing that LJ allows you to undo that sort of action.

I’ll freely admit, that some of my “rehab” efforts have gone better than others - and most have ended up pissing off someone else, who saw themselves as a wronged party, and me as “backing” the other person by not just removing them permanently.

So there is always a danger that you could end up losing people you would rather keep around, in an effort to give someone that you might not like as much one more chance at redemption. Not because it’s personal. But because you think that’s the right thing to do.

Part of that has always been the conflict of trying to maintain an actual diverse community. That is going to inherently have some headbutting going on, that a lot of folks aren’t used to in groups.

There seems to be a lot more bending to public opinion, than sticking to what you think is the right call for an individual situation.

(Which isn’t to say that the 30-member committee’s decision to ban the guy wasn’t warranted. I’m sure it was. I’m speaking in general. Or perhaps, in corporal.)

Not really sure what made me think of that, or feel like I need to say it. There’s nothing currently going on within Idol that I’m making a vague allusion about, and, like I said, I didn’t even know there was a thing called Readercon until earlier tonight, much less anything about the controversy that apparently has been going on all last week (or so)!

So really, it’s less about Readercon amd all the things that I don't know about the situation, and more about some of the things that popped into my head as a result of it... don’t get my brain started on figuring out why you have a 30-member committee and a separate 5-member board. I’m sure there are good reasons... I just don’t know them! ;)

***
There are a couple things that I DO know about though - and I’ve known about them for a lot longer than 24 hours!

There is a poll going on: http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/595911.html

There are also Home Game entries - which is good, because those folks have their own votes to cast! http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/592005.html

So make sure to take the time to send some love!

Date: 2012-08-08 05:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] porn-this-way.livejournal.com
Can has frist tiemz nao?

Date: 2012-08-08 05:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] roina-arwen.livejournal.com
Yes, you can haz first frist!

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Date: 2012-08-08 12:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alien-infinity.livejournal.com
Yesh, u CAN haz frist tiemz!!! ^_^

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Date: 2012-08-08 05:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] java-fiend.livejournal.com
No frist for you. *steals frist and runs away*

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Date: 2012-08-08 05:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ecosopher.livejournal.com
Haha. Wee 36 :D

Date: 2012-08-08 10:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] comedychick.livejournal.com
hahahaha. I'm immature because I laughed too ;)

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Date: 2012-08-08 02:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alycewilson.livejournal.com
Yay for thrid and Gidget (?) icons.

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Date: 2012-08-08 05:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ecosopher.livejournal.com
OK, now I've got the juvenile humour out of the way:

I was reading an article by Sam Harris which is vaguely related to this. He was actually talking about trolls on the internet and how he ignores them, but that doing so can create problems of their own. That's because he gets loads of emails from people saying, 'hey, did you know that there's some stupid internet troll spreading false information about you, and what are you going to do about it?' and also because there are people who then read these trolls' sites and accusations and are likely to believe things about Harris which aren't true.

Where do you go from there? You feed the trolls, you make things worse. You ignore the trolls, and then who's going to take them to task about the lies they're spreading?

Date: 2012-08-08 05:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] roina-arwen.livejournal.com
I always thought trolls lived under bridges! When did they get internet? Maybe they just post via 3G...

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Date: 2012-08-08 05:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kathrynrose.livejournal.com
This is the weirdest Green Room post that I have not understood and yet really don't want anyone to explain to me. Ever.

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Date: 2012-08-08 06:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pixiebelle.livejournal.com
I still have no idea what Readercon is or any of that stuff is about. Blissfully ignorant or painfully unaware? I dunno and I'm likely too tired to care. 

I played counselor to my niece tonight and I'm up way too late.... But it was nice talking to get. She's going through some growing pains and I felt like I got through to her on some things, mainly how she needs to seek happiness and stop feeling guilty about everything.

It may have helped me a bit in the process. Giving advice to others is always so much easier than giving it to yourself.

But in other news.... OMFG at the voting. I'm scared. I have a feeling that was Gary's intention....

Date: 2012-08-08 08:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] comedychick.livejournal.com
On the upside, most of the votes guarantee voters reading the entries rather than voting blindly. I like that Gary structured it in a way to make sure people would have to focus on how much effort everyone went to.

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Date: 2012-08-08 06:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pixiebelle.livejournal.com
Oh and we had an earthquake.... A fast one, but we had one.

That's always an odd experience for this MO native...

Date: 2012-08-08 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alycewilson.livejournal.com
We had one here in Pennsylvania about a year and a half ago. It was weird. I thought for a moment a truck had hit the house. What did it feel like where you were?

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Date: 2012-08-08 08:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jacq22.livejournal.com
Had three earthquakes in our area in the last few weeks.

And I have no idea what our poor confused 'hippie hater' was on about, and as he himself said taking time to read and digest is time you never get back. So as I am already ancient and need every moment I have, just kidding Gary. You explained it well

Date: 2012-08-08 02:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pixiebelle.livejournal.com
I lived here almost two years before we had one earthquake... Which is odd since it's California.... But we've had several lately. I didn't even freak out last night. I just sat there and went "earthquake!"

So I guess I'm getting used to them :)

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Date: 2012-08-08 09:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashgaelsonaria.livejournal.com
Wait
Votes?
I thought we just had the poll.
Yesh.
Well this season is winding down and I'm not really planing on doing the next.
I need to find a book on html and arg make an artist sight.
or I should but will likely continue to avoid it as I really hats working with code. Its not that I find it hard just uninteresting.
But I cant pay someone else and am not likely to find anybody who would do it for a painting.
Besides, when I signed on I did not know that someone I generally avoid would be around.

Date: 2012-08-08 11:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cacophonesque.livejournal.com
I've been following some of this stuff through Catherynne Valente, so I actually understand your references for once!

In this case, I'm glad that the board ultimately came around and decided to enforce their own policy. Giving someone a pass just because he's a friend and a big name doesn't do anyone any good. He's not going to have a chance to rehabilitate if his actions keep being dismissed and covered up. And in the mean time, it leaves the rest of the world at risk.

I don't know Gary... I understand your desire to help people integrate with society. But, in the case of predatory individuals, I don't think it's fair to place the rest of the population in danger to help attacker. In some ways this attitude makes me think of the Geek social fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html), #1.

Banning someone for inappropriate behavior is not ostracization.
In fact, Geek social fallacy #1 is what made the LARP I attended in college so unpleasant that I quit after a couple of sessions. There were a couple of guys there who used the game as a mechanism to corner women and hit on them. But when I complained about feeling uncomfortable, their behavior was excused as acceptable, because they were geeks and didn't have great social skills and we just had to be nicer to them. Also, that I should take it as a compliment that some creep was using the game as a means to get me alone in a room in the midddle of the night to make advances on me "in character", because it meant I was sexually desirable.

So, yeah, I guess I'm actually still a little pissed that Readercon took as long as it did to enforce its own policy.

Also, you know who was a "nice guy" that the adminstration tried to "help out"? Sandusky. And that worked out real well, didn't it.

Date: 2012-08-08 11:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com
You're definitely not the only one who's pissed about that. I walked into the story not knowing a damn thing about it nor the names involved and I still have a bad taste in my mouth.

OTOH I can see why other victims didn't want to make waves. I'm not saying that justified his actions because it certainly didn't, but unfortunately the whole situation can mess up a victim both mentally as well as physically.

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Date: 2012-08-08 11:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xo-kizzy-xo.livejournal.com
Am I the only one who knows that Gary is talking about? I only know about it because a couple of Readercon regulars on my FL had their say about it. I followed their F/F list and then got the official story along with the official decision.

It's a sexual harassment situation that has been going on, from what I gather, for a few years now. Somebody spoke up this time, and the complaint went through the official channels. The outcome wasn't quite what was expected, and there's still a brouhaha over it, even though the con itself ended a few weeks ago.

(Readercon = a con for, I think, mostly sci fi/fantasty enthsiasts, but it could encompass other genres for all I know.)

In other news...after today, 3 more days and then VACATION!!!

Date: 2012-08-08 11:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] p-m-cryan.livejournal.com
I know about it because it's my job to know about it. The debacle ate most of my brain and very nearly all my time last week, and the literary community of writers, editors, agents, columnists, booksellers, and fans have a LONG way to go to heal the damage. Fortunately many of us are working together, rather than at cross-purposes.

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Date: 2012-08-08 11:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theun4givables.livejournal.com
I feel so special, having to cast my votes like a contestant again. :D

Also I have like, triple the power, as I am a contestant, can vote in the poll, AND I'm a Jury member.

But please, don't think I'll let it go to my head.

...Or will I?

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

Date: 2012-08-08 12:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alien-infinity.livejournal.com
I could have written this comment! I, too, have TRIPLE POWER because I'm qualified for Top 30 voting, can vote in the regular poll AND am a Jury member. Muwahahahahahahahahaha!

Me? Let power go to my head? Why, I would NEVER! *innocent whistle*

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Date: 2012-08-08 03:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] roina-arwen.livejournal.com
True! I especially appreciated mine because my husband cooked it for me this morning, and he very rarely cooks!

Re: Voting Clarification

Date: 2012-08-09 02:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] comedychick.livejournal.com
That sounds pretty damn reasonable to me. :D Hopefully people see this!

Date: 2012-08-08 05:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pixiebelle.livejournal.com
More earthquakes. Small ones so far, but the earth is very active today. I hope they stay small :)

Date: 2012-08-08 06:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kathrynrose.livejournal.com
Have read about half the entries. ::whew::

Am taking a break.

Date: 2012-08-08 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theun4givables.livejournal.com
I have officially finished reading them all.

Realized that I have 49 y's on my spreadsheet. After eliminating a few y's from those who have over 10 y's as per Gary's additional rules (they were tentative), I still have 42 to whittle down to 30.

Guess I'm gonna have to reread 42 entries to determine my 30 favorites. My qualifications for voting for someone in the poll was different, if they had over 8 y's they got my vote. But the Top 30 is going to take me a couple of days, at least, to figure out. Fun.

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Date: 2012-08-08 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] porn-this-way.livejournal.com
W00t, about halfway through reading! I've been sorta reading 'em as they go up, so that's helped some, but I think this evening might turn out to be a "Starbucks and Galaxy Tab" sort of evening.

I actually read up on the Readercon thing, and NGL, my first reaction was "wow, that sounds like a really fucking boring convention!" From the official site: Although Readercon is modeled on "science fiction conventions," there is no art show, no costumes, no gaming, and almost no media. LobotomyCon 2k12! Almost as exciting as drinking a bottle of Benadryl.Almost

That aside, I was pretty surprised to hear the actual story. (Once I finally FOUND the actual story, buried amidst the assorted rants, tweets, and calls to arms.) I was gearing up to get super pissed off, 'cause truth be told, I was expecting yet another round of "Woe, somebody told a dirty joke as I was walking through the room, and now the delicate flower that is my feminine soul is forever wounded and crushed, so let us band together and burn this savage representative of the patriarchy at the stake, except stakes are phallic symbols, so let's drown him instead, in the name of freedom and equality, amen." But... apparently not. This creep was stalking somebody throughout the entire con, and he put his fucking hands on her? Oh hell no. Game over for this dude, and good riddance to bad rubbish. I'm a very strong advocate of the "if you don't like what someone is saying, then you don't have to listen" school of thought, but this guy was essentially taking away that woman's right to not listen the moment he started following her around, and he was violating her personal space the moment he touched her. You can't just scroll past or adblock a persistent annoyance IRL like you can online, so if someone was friggen shadowing her ass at the con, it's not like she could just right-click on his face and not have to deal with him anymore, or fire up the scroll bar and skate past him. Plus. He put his hands on her. That automatically takes it out of the realm of speech and into the realm of automatic epic fail. IDGAF if this clown was an international best selling author or some creep who just slithered out of the dumpster - that shit ain't right.

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Date: 2012-08-08 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cheshire23.livejournal.com
I think that a large part of the problem with what happened at Readercon was that they didn't enforce their own policies. Whatever my thoughts about the policy, they needed to enforce it.

I don't actually think the policy itself was a good one, precisely because a policy that punitive is going to lead to underreporting of incidents on the grounds of "is this really bad enough to kick someone out for FOREVER??" and thus no way to correct little problems before they become big problems.

I had a similar problem with one of the site policies for Pennsic, back when I worked the first-aid tent. The policy was that anyone who was hospitalized for over-intoxication would be allowed back onsite only to retrieve their belongings, and would then be set home for the rest of the event. While working the tent, I did a lot of drunk-sitting, but I think that I actually got the ones that weren't quite as bad off because the ones that were really bad off wouldn't go, and their friends wouldn't bring them, thanks to the kick-out policy. This is made worse because of something called Strawberry Surprise (http://everything2.com/title/Strawberry+Surprise). We've sometimes justified getting the EMTs or hospital involved on the grounds of the damage the pepper is doing, so it wouldn't trigger the letter of that alcohol policy.

So yeah. *pokes head in from the most intensive school-related writing load EVER*

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