Green Room - Week 36 - Day 13
Aug. 8th, 2012 01:17 amI feel like I’ve stepped into a rabbit hole that doesn’t go down, it just turns into an ouroboros.
A couple hours ago, I was blissfully ignorant that there was anything in existence called a “Readercon”, and Genevieve Valentine and Rene Walling were just two more names that I had never heard mentioned before, on what I assume is probably a long list of “people who do stuff that I had no idea about”. Honestly, I still have very little idea of what they do, other than one makes LJ posts, and the other sexually harass people.
Apparently, it’s a big thing in a small circle of the people who actually know what any of this is about. That circle reached me due to my checking the Idol Friends Page tonight. I’m sure there were mentions about it before, but this was the first time that I’d heard any of the names or the situations.
Which makes me highly qualified to discuss it! ;)
Actually, I’m not going to, other than to say “Wow” to everything about that.. it does bring up some interesting questions (to me) about power structures of groups involved in decision making and the role of rehabilitation versus punishment as it pertains to the big picture, and the more immediate one.
I’ve been fortunate to only have been in a position to put a permanent ban on a handful of individuals. Most of them are fake accounts. So it’s not like a banned an actual person in the process, so even those numbers are deceptive!
In most cases, I’ve found that taking the rehabilitation route to work best: Bringing people around to, if not “my way of thinking”, then at very least to a “place where they can interact with other people in a semi-civilized fashion”!
There have been some people who I didn’t think could be redeemed. Or at least, not anytime soon. Maybe, eventually, they could be... which is why it’s always a good thing that LJ allows you to undo that sort of action.
I’ll freely admit, that some of my “rehab” efforts have gone better than others - and most have ended up pissing off someone else, who saw themselves as a wronged party, and me as “backing” the other person by not just removing them permanently.
So there is always a danger that you could end up losing people you would rather keep around, in an effort to give someone that you might not like as much one more chance at redemption. Not because it’s personal. But because you think that’s the right thing to do.
Part of that has always been the conflict of trying to maintain an actual diverse community. That is going to inherently have some headbutting going on, that a lot of folks aren’t used to in groups.
There seems to be a lot more bending to public opinion, than sticking to what you think is the right call for an individual situation.
(Which isn’t to say that the 30-member committee’s decision to ban the guy wasn’t warranted. I’m sure it was. I’m speaking in general. Or perhaps, in corporal.)
Not really sure what made me think of that, or feel like I need to say it. There’s nothing currently going on within Idol that I’m making a vague allusion about, and, like I said, I didn’t even know there was a thing called Readercon until earlier tonight, much less anything about the controversy that apparently has been going on all last week (or so)!
So really, it’s less about Readercon amd all the things that I don't know about the situation, and more about some of the things that popped into my head as a result of it... don’t get my brain started on figuring out why you have a 30-member committee and a separate 5-member board. I’m sure there are good reasons... I just don’t know them! ;)
***
There are a couple things that I DO know about though - and I’ve known about them for a lot longer than 24 hours!
There is a poll going on: http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/595911.html
There are also Home Game entries - which is good, because those folks have their own votes to cast! http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/592005.html
So make sure to take the time to send some love!
A couple hours ago, I was blissfully ignorant that there was anything in existence called a “Readercon”, and Genevieve Valentine and Rene Walling were just two more names that I had never heard mentioned before, on what I assume is probably a long list of “people who do stuff that I had no idea about”. Honestly, I still have very little idea of what they do, other than one makes LJ posts, and the other sexually harass people.
Apparently, it’s a big thing in a small circle of the people who actually know what any of this is about. That circle reached me due to my checking the Idol Friends Page tonight. I’m sure there were mentions about it before, but this was the first time that I’d heard any of the names or the situations.
Which makes me highly qualified to discuss it! ;)
Actually, I’m not going to, other than to say “Wow” to everything about that.. it does bring up some interesting questions (to me) about power structures of groups involved in decision making and the role of rehabilitation versus punishment as it pertains to the big picture, and the more immediate one.
I’ve been fortunate to only have been in a position to put a permanent ban on a handful of individuals. Most of them are fake accounts. So it’s not like a banned an actual person in the process, so even those numbers are deceptive!
In most cases, I’ve found that taking the rehabilitation route to work best: Bringing people around to, if not “my way of thinking”, then at very least to a “place where they can interact with other people in a semi-civilized fashion”!
There have been some people who I didn’t think could be redeemed. Or at least, not anytime soon. Maybe, eventually, they could be... which is why it’s always a good thing that LJ allows you to undo that sort of action.
I’ll freely admit, that some of my “rehab” efforts have gone better than others - and most have ended up pissing off someone else, who saw themselves as a wronged party, and me as “backing” the other person by not just removing them permanently.
So there is always a danger that you could end up losing people you would rather keep around, in an effort to give someone that you might not like as much one more chance at redemption. Not because it’s personal. But because you think that’s the right thing to do.
Part of that has always been the conflict of trying to maintain an actual diverse community. That is going to inherently have some headbutting going on, that a lot of folks aren’t used to in groups.
There seems to be a lot more bending to public opinion, than sticking to what you think is the right call for an individual situation.
(Which isn’t to say that the 30-member committee’s decision to ban the guy wasn’t warranted. I’m sure it was. I’m speaking in general. Or perhaps, in corporal.)
Not really sure what made me think of that, or feel like I need to say it. There’s nothing currently going on within Idol that I’m making a vague allusion about, and, like I said, I didn’t even know there was a thing called Readercon until earlier tonight, much less anything about the controversy that apparently has been going on all last week (or so)!
So really, it’s less about Readercon amd all the things that I don't know about the situation, and more about some of the things that popped into my head as a result of it... don’t get my brain started on figuring out why you have a 30-member committee and a separate 5-member board. I’m sure there are good reasons... I just don’t know them! ;)
***
There are a couple things that I DO know about though - and I’ve known about them for a lot longer than 24 hours!
There is a poll going on: http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/595911.html
There are also Home Game entries - which is good, because those folks have their own votes to cast! http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/592005.html
So make sure to take the time to send some love!
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Date: 2012-08-08 05:19 am (UTC)no subject
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From:In a dialect you can understand:
Date: 2012-08-08 05:30 am (UTC)u mai nao haz cookeez!
Re: In a dialect you can understand:
From:Re: In a dialect you can understand:
From:Re: In a dialect you can understand:
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Date: 2012-08-08 05:26 am (UTC)I was reading an article by Sam Harris which is vaguely related to this. He was actually talking about trolls on the internet and how he ignores them, but that doing so can create problems of their own. That's because he gets loads of emails from people saying, 'hey, did you know that there's some stupid internet troll spreading false information about you, and what are you going to do about it?' and also because there are people who then read these trolls' sites and accusations and are likely to believe things about Harris which aren't true.
Where do you go from there? You feed the trolls, you make things worse. You ignore the trolls, and then who's going to take them to task about the lies they're spreading?
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Date: 2012-08-08 05:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-08-08 06:28 am (UTC)I played counselor to my niece tonight and I'm up way too late.... But it was nice talking to get. She's going through some growing pains and I felt like I got through to her on some things, mainly how she needs to seek happiness and stop feeling guilty about everything.
It may have helped me a bit in the process. Giving advice to others is always so much easier than giving it to yourself.
But in other news.... OMFG at the voting. I'm scared. I have a feeling that was Gary's intention....
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Date: 2012-08-08 08:00 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-08-08 06:29 am (UTC)That's always an odd experience for this MO native...
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Date: 2012-08-08 02:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-08-08 08:42 am (UTC)And I have no idea what our poor confused 'hippie hater' was on about, and as he himself said taking time to read and digest is time you never get back. So as I am already ancient and need every moment I have, just kidding Gary. You explained it well
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Date: 2012-08-08 02:01 pm (UTC)So I guess I'm getting used to them :)
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Date: 2012-08-08 09:22 am (UTC)Votes?
I thought we just had the poll.
Yesh.
Well this season is winding down and I'm not really planing on doing the next.
I need to find a book on html and arg make an artist sight.
or I should but will likely continue to avoid it as I really hats working with code. Its not that I find it hard just uninteresting.
But I cant pay someone else and am not likely to find anybody who would do it for a painting.
Besides, when I signed on I did not know that someone I generally avoid would be around.
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Date: 2012-08-08 11:06 am (UTC)In this case, I'm glad that the board ultimately came around and decided to enforce their own policy. Giving someone a pass just because he's a friend and a big name doesn't do anyone any good. He's not going to have a chance to rehabilitate if his actions keep being dismissed and covered up. And in the mean time, it leaves the rest of the world at risk.
I don't know Gary... I understand your desire to help people integrate with society. But, in the case of predatory individuals, I don't think it's fair to place the rest of the population in danger to help attacker. In some ways this attitude makes me think of the Geek social fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html), #1.
Banning someone for inappropriate behavior is not ostracization.
In fact, Geek social fallacy #1 is what made the LARP I attended in college so unpleasant that I quit after a couple of sessions. There were a couple of guys there who used the game as a mechanism to corner women and hit on them. But when I complained about feeling uncomfortable, their behavior was excused as acceptable, because they were geeks and didn't have great social skills and we just had to be nicer to them. Also, that I should take it as a compliment that some creep was using the game as a means to get me alone in a room in the midddle of the night to make advances on me "in character", because it meant I was sexually desirable.
So, yeah, I guess I'm actually still a little pissed that Readercon took as long as it did to enforce its own policy.
Also, you know who was a "nice guy" that the adminstration tried to "help out"? Sandusky. And that worked out real well, didn't it.
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Date: 2012-08-08 11:16 am (UTC)OTOH I can see why other victims didn't want to make waves. I'm not saying that justified his actions because it certainly didn't, but unfortunately the whole situation can mess up a victim both mentally as well as physically.
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Date: 2012-08-08 11:10 am (UTC)It's a sexual harassment situation that has been going on, from what I gather, for a few years now. Somebody spoke up this time, and the complaint went through the official channels. The outcome wasn't quite what was expected, and there's still a brouhaha over it, even though the con itself ended a few weeks ago.
(Readercon = a con for, I think, mostly sci fi/fantasty enthsiasts, but it could encompass other genres for all I know.)
In other news...after today, 3 more days and then VACATION!!!
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Date: 2012-08-08 11:52 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-08-08 11:46 am (UTC)Also I have like, triple the power, as I am a contestant, can vote in the poll, AND I'm a Jury member.
But please, don't think I'll let it go to my head.
...Or will I?
DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN
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Date: 2012-08-08 12:04 pm (UTC)Me? Let power go to my head? Why, I would NEVER! *innocent whistle*
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Date: 2012-08-08 01:32 pm (UTC)There’s nothing like seeing pictures/hearing accounts of suffering and poverty around the world to make you truly appreciate your breakfast sandwich!
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Date: 2012-08-08 03:24 pm (UTC)Voting Clarification
Date: 2012-08-08 04:23 pm (UTC)NO ONE has submitted a vote yet, so I’m not commenting on something anyone has done. But of the 30 votes that contestants/Home Gamers get to cast… I’m going to put a cap of *10* per individual.
I honestly feel that if you can’t find at least 3 different contestants who have 10 good entries (of 17) that you aren’t trying very hard/not really reading/have very, very limited taste.
If that pisses you off – well, then, it does. But I got to thinking about the idea of someone getting all 17 in there on a ballot, and don’t feel that is a realistic depiction of where things should stand.
I don’t see it as something that would happen anyway, but JUST IN CASE…
Re: Voting Clarification
Date: 2012-08-09 02:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-08 05:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-08 06:01 pm (UTC)Am taking a break.
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Date: 2012-08-08 06:40 pm (UTC)Realized that I have 49 y's on my spreadsheet. After eliminating a few y's from those who have over 10 y's as per Gary's additional rules (they were tentative), I still have 42 to whittle down to 30.
Guess I'm gonna have to reread 42 entries to determine my 30 favorites. My qualifications for voting for someone in the poll was different, if they had over 8 y's they got my vote. But the Top 30 is going to take me a couple of days, at least, to figure out. Fun.
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Date: 2012-08-08 07:32 pm (UTC)I actually read up on the Readercon thing, and NGL, my first reaction was "wow, that sounds like a really fucking boring convention!" From the official site: Although Readercon is modeled on "science fiction conventions," there is no art show, no costumes, no gaming, and almost no media. LobotomyCon 2k12! Almost as exciting as drinking a bottle of Benadryl.Almost
That aside, I was pretty surprised to hear the actual story. (Once I finally FOUND the actual story, buried amidst the assorted rants, tweets, and calls to arms.) I was gearing up to get super pissed off, 'cause truth be told, I was expecting yet another round of "Woe, somebody told a dirty joke as I was walking through the room, and now the delicate flower that is my feminine soul is forever wounded and crushed, so let us band together and burn this savage representative of the patriarchy at the stake, except stakes are phallic symbols, so let's drown him instead, in the name of freedom and equality, amen." But... apparently not. This creep was stalking somebody throughout the entire con, and he put his fucking hands on her? Oh hell no. Game over for this dude, and good riddance to bad rubbish. I'm a very strong advocate of the "if you don't like what someone is saying, then you don't have to listen" school of thought, but this guy was essentially taking away that woman's right to not listen the moment he started following her around, and he was violating her personal space the moment he touched her. You can't just scroll past or adblock a persistent annoyance IRL like you can online, so if someone was friggen shadowing her ass at the con, it's not like she could just right-click on his face and not have to deal with him anymore, or fire up the scroll bar and skate past him. Plus. He put his hands on her. That automatically takes it out of the realm of speech and into the realm of automatic epic fail. IDGAF if this clown was an international best selling author or some creep who just slithered out of the dumpster - that shit ain't right.
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Date: 2012-08-08 07:55 pm (UTC)A lot of the chaos around the event made reading about it after the fact a bit of a puzzle. Especially, when you go through the original post and it’s the second “bad thing” mentioned as happening. I had to reread it a couple times before I realized that it was one guy and not a couple different creeps.
Once he put his hands on her, yeah, that’s definitely where “shit got real” (as the kids say. Right kids??? *kicks them until they say “yes”)
My questions have more to do with the bigger picture of punitive vs rehabilitation and the legal ramifications of the con being so public with his name when, last update I saw, there weren’t any actual charges involved. They could be setting themselves up for something there. I’m not a lawyer though, so maybe not! Hopefully, they got counsel before acting/posting.
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Date: 2012-08-08 07:48 pm (UTC)I don't actually think the policy itself was a good one, precisely because a policy that punitive is going to lead to underreporting of incidents on the grounds of "is this really bad enough to kick someone out for FOREVER??" and thus no way to correct little problems before they become big problems.
I had a similar problem with one of the site policies for Pennsic, back when I worked the first-aid tent. The policy was that anyone who was hospitalized for over-intoxication would be allowed back onsite only to retrieve their belongings, and would then be set home for the rest of the event. While working the tent, I did a lot of drunk-sitting, but I think that I actually got the ones that weren't quite as bad off because the ones that were really bad off wouldn't go, and their friends wouldn't bring them, thanks to the kick-out policy. This is made worse because of something called Strawberry Surprise (http://everything2.com/title/Strawberry+Surprise). We've sometimes justified getting the EMTs or hospital involved on the grounds of the damage the pepper is doing, so it wouldn't trigger the letter of that alcohol policy.
So yeah. *pokes head in from the most intensive school-related writing load EVER*
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Date: 2012-08-08 08:06 pm (UTC)If it were a cause of groping, or worse – yeah, you can see where someone would want as severe punishment as possible to ensure that the place was safe for future convention goers.
Put his arm around me…. staring at me and following me around… those are going to have different lines for different people. Most, if not all, will be creeped out by it. But will they think “I need to get this guy kicked out forever!!”?
Whereas, if they did have a “pardon” system, would someone be more likely to come forward. OR, would they be LESS likely? I guess that depends on the person.