therealljidol | Green Room - Week 13

The poll closes tonight: https://therealljidol.dreamwidth.org/1036867.html

So make sure YOUR voice is being heard when it comes to determining the results!

***

I've been seeing a lot of people sharing articles about Livejournal lately, with the usual "I wish it was still around" (despite it, you know, still being around)

In reading the comments though, I get the sense that it's more "I wish things were the way they were back then". Which is a common enough part of getting older.

Also noted - how many of the "downfall of Livejournal" articles seem to revolve around how much people like porn. :D

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/the-linux-of-social-media-how-livejournal-pioneered-then-lost-web-blogging/

https://boingboing.net/2019/01/22/nipplegate-legacy.html

https://mashable.com/2018/05/13/was-livejournal-ever-good/

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/6/18127869/tumblr-livejournal-porn-ban-strikethrough

OK, the porn is really only a part of what people are talking about. A big part though seems to revolve around the idea of giving people what they want/the dangers of doing that. I have enough problems with that with Idol. I can't imagine the pressures facing LJ in it's infancy and growing into it's teen years. It's no wonder that they brought in help, and eventually just sold it.

The anonymous communities alone would have made me want to bail and call the experiment an morally bankrupt failure. (interestingly enough, that seems to be one of the biggest groups of "I miss those days". If being assholes to people was one of the best times of your life, you may want to reevaluate just what you were doing with the rest of your life. :) )

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

clauderainsrm

*sits back and waits for the counter arguments*. :)

From:

favoritebean

The anon communities were brutal. I missed out on the porn, save for random ONTD posts.

From:

bleodswean

Between the anon comms and the porn, especially the kiddie porn *GAG*, it could be difficult to find a quiet kind corner of LJ. The wank became commonplace but in no way did that lessen the sting. It was personal. The porn was something so sickening that I still get gobsmacked to think of how we put up with it, there was so much shaming if one dared to express concern. I think that many LJers in the early days leapt at MySpace and Twitter because of the control they felt it could give them to filter that out but, of course, we know it offered little respite. Then Tumblr and FB appeared and that was it, the grotesque went in one direction and the nice the other, and those who just wanted to connect via words got left behind.

From:

bsgsix

I came here to say something similar to this. But I already had one foot out the door of LJ in 2014, and missed a LOT of the... worsening porn. And it was BAD, and no one did much about it.

That, and once a friend of mine who is a Russian attorney read and explained the real TOS to me? Nah. I was out for certain. I can't have an account there. It takes 20 minutes of energy just to type this comment. Being told my posts could be removed for mentioning the LGBTQ+ community but kiddie porn fanfic was allowed to stay (the Russian TOS essentially says this) was just not worth my time.

I feel like here, I've connected via words, but few people reply back. It's fine, and God knows it feels... safer and friendlier here (I deleted my FB account, even, and don't miss a thing - I like more privacy in my sickness and in getting older). LJ feels like old news, but DW feels like it's never going to catch on the same way. But with Tumblr people coming over, it's always hard to know. I thought FB would have crashed by now. It SHOULD have, but here we are.

From:

bleodswean

Yes, and yes, and yes!

Admittedly, I LOVED LJ the first decade or so. I had come over from usenet and then email lists and just adored the platform with the "friends" page and the communities. Wank had already been part of the internet via the listgroups, but it really exploded once the nasties got their girl gangs gathered behind them. For the most part, that didn't bother me because really who cares what a group of goofballs think....but the porn was where I drew the line. Although, to be honest, the cliques that became part and parcel of the wankers...were hard on the general feeling of friendliness and I thought MySpace just made those worse. Tumblr was never an option for me and to this day I can't get it to load because of my internet connection. FaceBook was just like a ???????????? for me because I don't need to reconnect with anyone. YUCK.

DW is fine, but I agree....it still needs some sort of JOLT.

From:

clauderainsrm

The LJ/DW rift is real, and it is deep.

There are people who simply will not cross in either direction.

From:

clauderainsrm

I was in a conversation yesterday about "why people don't come to DW" that ended up having an argument over what the DW owner's politics was. (People were arguing in both "they are really conservative" AND "they are really liberal", and both citing that as a reason they don't use DW)

From:

bleodswean

These arguments seem strange to me. Obviously, the vast differences between the arguments and the fact that folks are discussing the same thing is a concern, but overall...I think people are lazy and they just aren't interested at this point in the development of the internet, in using this type of media. It's a strangely worrisome psychological development and one that bears studying a bit.

From:

bsgsix

"but overall...I think people are lazy and they just aren't interested at this point in the development of the internet, in using this type of media..."

Your quote is the reason why the Internet feels so... weary, I think. And it definitely bears study, I concur.

(The hilarious thing is that the owner is very liberal and that is basically in the bio, but no one reads the fine print. And it shouldn't matter if we're discussing Internet development. Politics invades everything. It's draining. Probably an unpopular opinion, but I'm just tired of it.)

From:

bleodswean

It SHOULDN'T matter!!!! That's exactly how I feel. Does the platform work? Yes! I've heard complaints about image posting but I'm not having that using photobucket. If you want to write and to read and to hold forth in words, then this IS THE ONLY PLACE to do that just like LJ used to be! WHAT IS THE ISSUE??? It's confusing to me and I don't want to take the low road or the moaning way and just say, it's over, but c'mon people!

From:

bsgsix

Exactly! It's just like shouting into the damn void after a while, and it's not worth it. If the platform works, use it. This is a place where the platform works, it feels safe, and I can share. I hope that holds, and for now, I have to do what I did with LJ - pay attention but hope for the best, and so far, so good. I'm still learning, but good for me.

So here is where I'll be. This IS the only place that is like the place LJ used to be! LJ is NOT that place, there isn't an issue in my mind. And it's not taking the low road or moaning... because when something is over, it is over. I'm so with you on this.

From:

kizzy

HUH?!? WTH?!?

Just goes to show how out of touch I've been with everything. The biggest reason in my flagging corner of the internet is because those who are still on LJ don't want to change venues because they have too much already invested there, especially those who have permanent accounts. Many of my *older* contemporaries feel that the TOS doesn't apply to them and why would *they* be interested in my everyday ramblings?

From:

clauderainsrm

KIZZY!!!!!

Nothing to add. Just excited to see you poke your head in here.

From:

kizzy

I still don't have a working laptop so I have to steal whatever bits of time I can on SO's desktop. I hate posting on my phone. Ergo, my absence as of late. Not to mention my now turned upside down work schedule :p

From:

bsgsix

Well, with the LJ TOS, once fully spelled out from the Russian... yeah, I can't cross back. Not any longer. Between that and the loss of community... not going to happen for me. I'm happier here. But maybe I like the quiet (and the freedom of talking about things without them being deleted. Same with FB. Don't miss THAT noise, either! I'm getting old!). ;)

From:

wolfden

I feel the same way. I’m glad DW is here. I don’t use it as much as I did LJ in the early years but when I need it. It’s here. I don’t have as many friends as I did on lj but I am getting more and always glad to have more.

When things were hard last spring when teddy was such a premie, I found a lot of peace from DW and a couple Facebook communities. Having that was a huge blessing.

From:

bsgsix

I like having it here as well. And while I don't post too often, you are always welcome to add me as a friend. I tend to comment on most things, especially when people are having a rough go of things. <3

From:

bsgsix

We are definitely on the same page.

I LOVED LJ. Loved. I was able to move my old account entries over to DW, and I posted probably 2-3 times a day in 2008 and 2009. I wrote long pieces that actually meant something about my life. I had lengthy comments from friends who gave a damn. It was just a nice place to be. And I opened that account in 2003, so, for about 10 years - same account, same people, same community.

But hiding behind ALL THAT, if I dared step outside my community (or writing ones like LJ that didn't rely on, you know, fanfic kiddie porn, essentially) - it was so ugly. It was mean. Wank was everywhere from the start (oh, my first computer with the Internet in 1995 was a disaster, because I was 13 and had no clue what I was doing...), but on LJ, I was good at avoiding it. Until I wasn't, because it was everywhere, and NO ONE shouted about it. Or if I did, I was called everything from a bitch to a creative killjoy to - well, there were death threats. I remember those, too.

So it was where you lurked that the problems were. When it was friends and our communities, like you said, all was well. When the wank started to invade, and there was no escape because of The Great Porn Invasion (I'm tired, sorry if this is wordy or oddly-stated) - it just wasn't FUN here. It wasn't great for me to watch people staring at 4-year-olds or writing about sex with their daughters. Nope, nah, never.

Cliques are everywhere (from our small group, though I don't see it as badly on DW as I did on LJ, especially back in the day, so - credit where credit is due there!), but porn cliques are the literal worst. Or people who can defend that and then insist upon hanging around LJ "just in case." Nah. I'm good. I left for a reason. If you want to be on LJ, cool, but I'm not good with it. Between the TOS and everything you mentioned, like wanting to find that connection via words, leaving LJ felt like a natural progression. There wasn't a place for me there. I missed things, and still do, but not enough to sell myself out to it.

Ugh, I'm rambling. James had his tonsils out at 7 this morning, so I'm tired, and my newest lab numbers are just - bad. Doc just called for a second time and "why is your body doing this" is a tiring line to hear from a specialist. I'm tired. I'm sorry.

MySpace was such a trash playground. I had one but never enjoyed it. I liked FB at first, when it was mostly just for college connections, but by 2009, even THAT felt old, and yeah - why reconnect with people I hadn't been talking to? And 2009 was my 10-year high-school reunion, so people were coming out of the woodwork, and it was just - nah. Deleting it last month has been freeing. As for Tumblr - never used it, never needed to, and I couldn't tell you how SnapChat or Instagram worked if you paid me to. I do have a Twitter account, but it was for book promotion when I had a nonfic book published in 2017, and I hop on now for some sci-fi fan stuff. Otherwise... I think I'm gathering dust here, but at least I LIKE it here.

So DW is fine, but it does need a JOLT. I think having Idol here is REALLY nice - I won't ever play it on LJ because I refuse to use LJ - and I've noticed new names and faces. If things like that happen, DW could have a big life (and with Tumblr users coming over, it may see a jolt. It just may take time. I wish I knew. In the meantime, I'll just keep - taking up my little corner here!).

From:

halfshellvenus

Poor James and poor you!

I hope he's feeling better soon, and I hope your body becomes more cooperative than it has been. *hugs*

From:

bsgsix

Thanks. James is doing really well (his voice sounds so very different with his tonsils out! It's cute!) though as it gets later, his temperature is rising. So I'm keeping an eye on him. As for me... just another day. I'm going to go to bed soon, I hope. It's getting so hard to stay awake for longer than an hour at a time. But I try. I really do. *hugs*

From:

halfshellvenus

I somehow missed the kiddie porn, unless people are talking about something other than what I think they mean.

I do remember a lot of written porn (fanfiction, and that's always been a part of fanfiction), but visual porn? Not really. Guess I just didn't go looking for it?

But I do remember anon comms and wank being a problem, more occasionally than as a regular thing.

What I chiefly remember is that the mood changed when some outside groups got LJ to censor itself on the basis of the idea that some journals and comms MIGHT contain porn, and that extended into shutting down comms/journals and other supportive environments that discussed surviving childhood sexual abuse. Basically, painting ALL of them with the same brush, as if there was no difference between them.

A lot of people fled LJ then, and it got quieter, and then the Russians took over LJ and things got REALLY weird and more people left, and meanwhile things like Tumblr were on the rise with mostly younger fans, I think.

The people flocking to Facebook instead of LJ (and a few did that too) just mystified me. They would go from posting deep political/social discussions to "Cheese sandwich for lunch today! Awesome!"

What is the attraction in that?

From:

bleodswean

I never saw visual porn, I'm talking only of fic porn. Not sure there is a quantifiable difference.

About fifteen years or so ago now, I was involved in a Harry Potter Christmas Drabble Exchange and somehow someone requested something they called "chan." And someone identified with this and wrote a fic with about a four-year-old Draco and his father and that's enough description and me and thistle-verse flipped the fuck out!!!! I mean flipped. the. fuck. out. NO ONE CAME TO OUR SIDE. Everyone told us how narrow-minded we were being, how we were trying to "shame" and "out" the requester and the fulfiller and that LJ should be a "safe space" for people to explore "fantasy" and if we didn't like a thing we should just not read it.

So, it was her and me against a horde of writers whom I had previously thought were pretty cool folks. It changed so much for me. My eyes were opened and it really made me frighteningly aware of mob rule.

I think porn is porn.

From:

halfshellvenus

o_O

Good lord!

I was completely unaware of that whole element. Yikes. I think you flipped out for entirely appropriate reasons!

I've seen underage fanfic porn, and a lot of the time it's written by teens who are themselves that age and don't think of it as "too young." As an adult, the older I get the more /o\ that strikes me, but I do remember being that way myself during those younger years.

From:

clauderainsrm

None of the "slash"/"chan" stuff (I've seen it called various things) communities that I ran across (running a writing community, you come across other writers - and learned quickly which areas to stay away from) were ever "age appropriate".

Most seemed to be women in their 20s and 30s who wanted to see Harry Potter have sex with Snape.

From:

halfshellvenus

I was trying to figure out whether you meant 'age-inappropriate' instead, but then I remembered that Harry is a child and Snape is an adult.

I think that's (psychoanalyzes briefly) a desire on the part of the readers/writers to be in the position of 'innocent, vulnerable' Harry and be dominated by 'sexy-bad' Snape.

It's more about the power dynamics (which the age thing does increase, definitely) and having sexuality 'forced' on them where they don't have to feel as if it was their idea.

I'm probably not explaining it very well, but you could think of it as people being not entirely comfortable with sexual feelings but having all that same desire and wanting an 'out' for feeling/thinking about it. A lot of non-con/dub-con is of that ilk.

If Harry were the adult and Snape the student, I think you would still see some of that-- and Snape would still be seducing the innocent Harry.

Now, if Snape were played by someone other than Alan Rickman, perhaps it would be less common. ;)

I never spent time in the Harry Potter fandom, so I missed out on all that. :)

From:

bleodswean

These were full grown women, K. I think we did begin to realize that none were mothers, though...and I think the fact that thistle-verse and I had smalls probably made us more FLIPPED OUT. Fandoms were rife with really unacceptable topics and cheerleaders of said topics. Not sure if it was the anon factor or the being-on-stage aspect but there is a contingency of people out there who just want to vomit publically.

I'm not a prude, but I do know I have a bias against graphic content (PWP) because, to me, I'm all about the metaphor and poetry and folktale aspect of words. I just find the smashing of bodies together in prose to be pointless.

From:

halfshellvenus

These were full grown women
I have no words. /o\

Oh, wait, I do: "Seek help."

And yes, I know how people get about perceived judgmental behavior, but sometimes it's deserved. Ugh.

From:

bsgsix

Main point aside, I want to apologize to everyone for not commenting on all the entries this week. It's been a rough one. But I am very sorry. I did read and vote, but my commenting was... not my normal. Again, I am really sorry. I'll do all I can to engage with everyone this upcoming week. It's not been an easy time, and that has nothing to do with LJ or DW or any social media platform. :)

My kid (who is 7) also had his tonsils removed this morning, so the exhaustion is REAL. He's bizarrely fine - drinking a milkshake, watching TV, playing iPad - but I could sleep for days. I think I was worked up over it. I've never had a surgery go WELL for me, and my nerves were obviously held inside, away from him, so I'm recovering now.

Time for a smoothie. I've lost my ability to eat solid food (a fun development!), so that's where we are. But it's a good thing strawberry banana smoothies are tasty. :)

From:

adoptedwriter

All my best to James! Hope he heals fast!

From:

bleodswean

If being assholes to people was one of the best times of your life, you may want to reevaluate just what you were doing with the rest of your life. :)

LOVE THAT. Have a meme -

From:

murielle

Hi,

As some of you know I've relapsed and am in bed except for short intervals. I haven't kept up with the reading, or commenting this week, and because of that the only fair thing I felt I could do was vote for everyone who posted an entry.

I wish you all the very best!
Murielle

From:

adoptedwriter

I was a slacker at LJ this week....So very sorry....Busy work week last and this one too.

From:

adoptedwriter

I liken DW to moving from a big town where you knew everyone and where everything is, to moving to a bit smaller town, and it's not as different as you thought it might be, but there are a few new things to get used to or you hope will eventually get better developed here (uploading photos). I only have 1 LJ-only friend left over there. Next time my acct is due to be paid, I will prob let that slip by to a free acct.

From:

kizzy

Hm, it's interesting reading everybody's thoughts here. I was never involved with the inner workings of LJ itself nor was I even aware of the fic porn since I never did fanfic (I didn't even know fanfic porn was such a thing until people started discussing it!) My little area of LJ was mostly Idol, of course, along with a couple other then-active communities and a very active FL.

Mostly everybody who's here from LJ on my FL mirrors their entries and most of the replies still go over to LJ rather than staying here. There are a few who are now exclusively here so I have to make the effort to actually be here to read/reply.

I lost a chunk of friends because of an anon community. They left LJ altogether and reformed on FB. They're all still there. I rarely participated in anon but I liked following them every so often for the trainwreck factor. There was a lot of freedom in anonymity where you could tell somebody to go F themselves and get into a spat that could potentially become viral. I used to get a kick out of the "Fake LJ Deaths" community where people would out those users purposely making up alts and having those alts *die*. They made people think those alts were actual people. It would just amaze me how much trouble and time somebody would take to construct all that just for the hell of it.

As some of those articles state, we all grow up at some point and things which used to grab us by the heart no longer do, even if you remember it fondly. You can either adapt to the inevitable changes or say goodbye. I'm in that nether world between the two as far as LJ/DW are concerned. Posting in either place is now like shouting into a void, and sooner or later you either tire of that or you keep shouting until you go hoarse. Or you pick up your stuff and go to places where other are now active. Or you eschew everything altogether and look back on it.

Edited Date: 2019-01-29 04:08 pm (UTC)