Green Room - Week 22 - Day 3 & 4

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

Hello.

Comments

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

But over time it seems the nature of the contest has changed. Pressure to continue playing, keep up with the social aspects, avoid the "drama" etc becomes incredibly stressful and overwhelming. For a person who is so used to playing things up front and being direct, the sheer amount of subtlety, backhanded commentary, hidden agendas and voting analysis and gossip is near impossible. This is not the way she runs her relationships, and being forced into a situation where that's the norm to keep playing the game is devastating.

This is a succinct summary of what is malicious and unpleasant about playing LJ Idol.

I hope that Kassi does whatever she needs to do to take care of herself. I think her friends will support her decision, whatever it is, and anyone who gives her grief can go fuck themselves.

I can't believe that clauderainsrm isn't aware of many of the unpleasant behaviors of contestants in this season and previous ones. What I don't understand is why those people aren't booted for that sort of nonsense. I can't decide which is the worse alternative - that it is silently condoned or that it just doesn't matter.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

Why are people not booted for not liking each other?

Or for making asses out of themselves at times?

Because like most things, those are completely subjective about where exactly that line is going to be drawn. Which is why it's handled case by case and on a complaint basis. I'm certainly not going to step into a situation between two (or more) adults and make a call where I am not neither wanted nor required.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

You are over-simplifying things - I'm not talking about booting people because they don't like each other or mediating playground fights. I'm talking about systematic cruelty and bad behavior. I'm talking about people who go out of their way to cause problems and create problems.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

and I'm asking for an example of where someone actually did or said something that went over that line *in Idol*.

I can't police people's private journals. I do what I can, but ultimately I don't have that authority. I can only read what people don't screen me out of it. So I may have missed something.

But if someone has a problem - that need to BRING IT TO ME.

It does absolutely *no good* weeks after the fact to come up and say "Yeah, I thought it was horrible - but I wanted to wait until I got voted off to bring it up".

I simply can't step in on "they hurt my feelings", because this is life, people are going to hurt your feelings. Hell, reading some of the comments piss ME off to no end!

But I also know that I have absolutely no place packing bubble wrap around someone because I don't think they can handle someone being an asshole to them. This isn't "an Idol problem" or "Idol drama" - this is every aspect of human interaction.

They cross the line inside these walls I can shut them down, point out that they are being idiots, or on a good day spin things around so that maybe someone can see things from another angle.

The funny thing about "I'm talking about people who go out of their way to cause problems and create problems." is that it really does depend on where your viewpoint is - there are some people who are going to argue that bringing this discussion here is going out of your way to cause a problem after all!!!*G*

You have to be able, and willing, to assign a motive to people's actions that may or may not exist. Maybe it was a snarky one off comment meant to be laughed off - maybe someone forgot to take their meds! You wander into the territory of trying to figure out what is and isn't happening in someone's mind and you've entered a minefield.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

I think after expressing my displeasure in people being unwilling to call others out on bad behavior, it would be hypocritical of me to avoid it now.

My prime example - spydielives. I know that you've been made aware of problems with her, and she seems to be central to every kerfluffle that happens in LJI. (Like the raging over-reaction to the poll embedding issue.) Perhaps most relevant is that I know Kassi reached out to you for assistance in dealing with her passive aggressive behaviors months ago.

Certainly no one on the internet expects to be treated like a china doll and protected from everything harsh, certainly there are all sorts of places where words are open to interpretation. But I think your response to this is really flip and that bothers me. I agree with rm that it would be nice to see something from you on sportsmanship, whether you are going to discourage any of the behaviors that were brought up or if you are going to announce this is a no holds barred cage match where all things are acceptable. Either way, it would be good to know.

[greg-kennedy.livejournal.com]

Before this goes any further, I just want to throw in that I'm fine with the comment screening for the exact reason Gary stated - my original message this morning read quite a bit into my wife's situation and was not accurate to her current Idol experience.

If you'd like to continue on this comment chain then by all means go ahead, but I just want to remove guilt from any specific person this morning since there is not and was not anyone specific deserving of blame.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Hopefully everyone will read this comment as well rather than using the original one as a springboard to vent. Granted, things have been building up all season without an explosion. So I guess we were due.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

The poll embedding situation was actually brought up - and depending on who you talk to either overblown or not talked about enough - by various people, none of whom were spydielives by the way.

But it is funny that you should mention the passive aggressive problem between the two of them. Because yes, I've sent them both to their respective corners a couple times this season. Why? Because they BOTH were being passive aggressive and butting heads seemingly for the sake of it - at the end of the day those two are *a lot* alike.

I know them both. I like them both. And for the record, they *both* independently reached out to me for assistance in the matter. Which I think should show the differences in perspective that is always good to keep in mind.

When they needed a referee to sit down and talk to make sure everything was OK, I was more than willing to take the time and sit down with them. They talked and worked out whatever it was they needed to work out - until the next time it comes along, and yeah, knowing those two, there is going to be a next time!

Ultimately though, it's up to the two of them to decide if it's worth it.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

So the part where she went off in emo_snal's post about the subject never happened, nor did she make a post demanding people vote for her because of it? (Oh, I forgot, there was an apology the next day.)

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

What I am saying is that she didn't bring it up in the first place and I don't know if you saw them or not, but she was hardly the only person to have a reaction to them pro or anti.

What was or wasn't done after it was out there is what it is. Some people thought it was an appropriate response. Other people thought it was an over-the-top completely out of proportion response.

Again, it comes down to perspective.

It comes down to people coming into a public forum and talking about other people and their motivations, and what folks are going to read into that. It's part of what makes it so tricky to enforce any sort of standard, because when you peel it back, the behaviors aren't really all that far apart.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

I think you're splitting hairs to project the image of neutrality here. I think that is a bit disingenuous and not a stance I care for personally. But, it is your game to do as you wish.

I would reiterate again that I think you should take up rm's suggestion, because she does do excellent PR.

[clauderainsrm.livejournal.com]

Obviously we are going to disagree. At the end of the day though I know that it's not even slightly disingenuous and I hope that the people actually involved with these situations know that as well.

I am certainly open to hear what people do think is "good sportsmanship" though. What is and isn't acceptable behavior is always worth the time.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I think the utterly massive difference between "His/her entry is digusting to me" and "He/she is disgusting" needs to be something grokked in the broader discourse.

There are ways to express even extreme distaste for a person's style, subject matter and presentation that are not dehumanizing or gratuitously cruel.

This, however, is either lost on some people at some times or wilfully overlooked.

We focus so much on how to write entries or how to play the game. How about we talk about how to have a conversation?

Finally able to actually get to LJ

[spydielives.livejournal.com]

I have only had comment notifications for the last hour. It has been frustrating to say the least.

I am not going to argue with you (or anyone else). Kris knows what really happened between the two of us and why I apologized. Whether he chose to share that in his journal under lock-and-key, I don't know.

I know what our discussions were like in public. I know what our discussions were like privately. They don't match... perhaps he would like to share why? I agreed I wouldn't press the matter at the time.

I appreciate your honesty in your opinion of my behavior from your perspective. Since this is, as far as I can remember, the first time you have said anything about it, and chose such a public forum to do so, I am double-happy to have had a chance to respond in the same forum.

I don't hide my game interactions behind filters... ever. It is something I am rather proud of.

Re: Finally able to actually get to LJ

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

You're right, I have not ever addressed the topic. It would have served no purpose to talk about it in my journal or your journal. Why bother? I think it's more headache than it is really worth. I brought it up here because I was asked to point at a specific example and yours seemed most relevant to the moment.

Re: Finally able to actually get to LJ

[spydielives.livejournal.com]

Thank you, although I fail to see why I am most relevant to the moment, unless there is something else going on that I am unaware of that somehow involves me.

ETA: Since I won't be making it through this round anyway, I am not sure it matters either way.

[kittenboo.livejournal.com]

I agree that Gary could write something about the nature of sportsmanship or drama or how to walk away before responding to things that upset us.

On the other hand I disagree with your assessment of spydielives being a part of the problem. I find too often in ljidol and even livejournal in general that when people disagree and voice those disagreements and even try to tell their own side, that people interpret that as "causing drama".

I also think that before we state that people need to be banned or that people are causing problems we need to know the whole story. I have not seen anyone do or say anything that goes over the line. If things are being said behind the scenes then the people they are being said to need to speak up. But being upset or people arguing is not going over the line.

Just my two cents