therealljidol | Green Room - Week 7

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Green Room - Week 7 - Day 2

If you've been missing it, there is a lot of interesting discussion going on in the Work Room http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/504864.html about concrit and it's place in Idol.

Over the years, I've seen two very distinct groups develop when it comes to this subject. Well, more than two, since there are shades and aspects involved - but Idol has a history of diversity, so that's hardly surprising!

But for the purpose of this, let's just call it "two sides" for the sake of simplicity! ;)

One side champions the idea of increasing the work shop aspect of the community, utilizing concrit as a tool to help each other grow as writers. Some folks are better than others at giving it, but any sincere and constructive comment for a writer to consider about their work is a good thing.

On the other, and just as passionate - are people who have argued that they don't want to hear it, unless you specifically ask. Kind of the "when I want your opinion, I'll ask for it" response. Which, maybe that's unfair to put it that way, but hey, it's funny, so I'm going with it! ;)

Given the strength of convictions that have come out - Idol's official stance on all of this is you are adults, figure it out. Which is apparently a controversial stance on its own - the idea that I'm not going to tell people that they have to accept concrit if they don't want it, and that I'm not going to stop it from being posted by people who want to post it.

It's your feedback. I have faith in you that you will figure out exactly what kind of feedback you want - and go out and "be that change" that you want to see.

There have been seasons where there has been more of a "You rock!" tone to the responses - and others where there has been a backlash to it. But even with the backlash, it always seemed that people were waiting around for someone else to swoop in and give them the type of feedback that they wanted.

That's not how these things work. If you want better quality, and more useful feedback - lead by example. Give people the type of feedback and attention that you want for your own entries. Maybe you will get it. Maybe you won't. But at least you have put something out there into the narrative of the kind of season, the type of experience, you want to have.

I can't force you to do anything you aren't willing to do. Neither can anyone else. If you want it, you have to get out there and do it.

If you would rather not participate, don't. If someone gives you concrit, feel free to ignore them. Heck, if you feel strongly enough - delete it, or filter - whatever you want to do with it. Maybe print it out and make it into a hat. It is your space after all.

it's your experience. Everyone but one person is going to walk out of here this season. So it's a really just a matter of what you will have done with that time and opportunity.

***

With everything else going on - I want to make sure that everyone takes the time to check out the results from last week: http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/504478.html - because these are also people who took the time and opportunity to spend their time in Idol, along with the rest of you. I hope we will continue to see them, writing in the Home Game, but its always a good thing to stop over and say goodbye. After all, it comes down to how you want to be treated when you end up being eliminated.

****

The new topic is up: http://therealljidol.livejournal.com/504693.html and is already causing a bit of a stir. It should make for an interesting, and fun, week!

***

Also, before I forget - Congratulations Top 200!. You have outlasted over 100 contestants! Good job!

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Well hello there late night GR!

Now that I've actually read this rather lengthy post, I do encourage people to go over and give the work room a look this week. There is a lot of interesting discussion going on. I posted my views on receiving concrit over there, but FTR, in case anyone actually gives a crap, here are my views on giving it.

Three things: 1. I don't have a lot of time to read, much less comment. I TRY to at least comment to say hey, I was here, I read this, I heard you. 2. I don't often feel like anyone's going to care much what I have to say, not because what I have to say sucks necessarily (it might, YMMV), but because in general, people aren't looking to change their viewpoint, or out for any type of criticism whatsoever. Which is completely understandable and is general human nature. So even if I had something to offer in that respect, and I had time to go into it properly, I normally won't, unless, 3. I feel people are actually looking for constructive criticism about their writing.

I'm not opposed to giving or receiving, it just takes special circumstances for me to give constructive criticism. It's not so much a being nice thing as... respecting what I assume are people's wishes. I default to the side of praising comments, because man, I so do not have time to get deep into it, and I'd rather focus on the positive things in your entry. And I do, even when I read something that I don't particularly love. I try to find SOMETHING to compliment and focus on the strengths.

Final word-- because I'm feeling particularly wordy tonight, apparently--I think it's wise of Gary not to try and put rules on this sort of thing, just as it's wise not to tell people what does and does not constitute "enough" for an entry. There's a fine line there between dictating and democracy. Gary has always stayed on the side of letting us decide for ourselves, and IMO that's one of the reasons this competition is as fair and rewarding as it is.

Edited 2011-12-07 05:30 (UTC)

Personally, I always find the best-received feedback to be that of the "you rock!!!" variety.
Unless it is of the (misused) your/you're/yore or the their/there/they're corrections, (my personal pet peeves, doncha know)-- I tend to avoid gifting(?) too many "helpful suggestions" to anybody I do not feel I know pretty well on here. I have been singed a few times...and have learned to fear that fire.

I call fowl! It's not Day Two where I'm at yet, so as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist... Yet. :)

I'm staying up late, for me, tonight, trying to cobble together an entry which makes some sort of sense. Do any of the rest of you find that you're only able to write at night, when everyone else in the house has gone to bed?

Dan

Whoa, late GR!

I am working on my entry... Well technically finished the first draft. I am wondering about it though and will be asking for some beta readers before it's all over and done with, I'm sure. It's a little different for me... so I guess I could use some concrit where that's concerned. Okay, it's really different for me this season, but hey, I am all about trying new things :)

Any possible takers?

And I am always willing to offer concrit, but I do prefer to be asked outright and I do want the person to be comfortable hearing the truth. If you strictly want me to say "That's awesome!", please don't ask. I don't want to hurt people's feelings and I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I am sensitive too, but it's something I am personally working on since I do sort of want to take my writing to bigger places outside Idol. In order to do that, I need to get better. To get better? I need people to learn how to get better.

Hello GR! I'm getting caught up on tonight's episode of The Biggest Loser and also playing around on Facebook.

In great news, I got my all-time high score in bowling tonight (at least as far as league play goes) - a 178! Since my league average right now is a 112, that's pretty darn good. W00t!

Still pondering topic... more processing later!

Btw Gary, I really love the work rooms this season.

I have to admit that the discussions about concrit have made for interesting reading. I do agree that by posting in a public space, you're inviting criticism, be it constructive or not (let's face it; there are jerks in the world), but I also agree that it's up to you as the author to deal with that criticism (and

nyxocity made some really great points about how to perceive and deal with it). I don't think anyone should feel obligated to leave concrit, though. I also think that why someone is participating in Idol is a factor. If improving as a writer is secondary to making new friends/socialising, then you have to wonder whether leaving concrit to that particular person is worth it, you know? Will they actually appreciate it/take it into account, or would your time perhaps be better spent leaving concrit for someone who does want it?

I guess concrit will always be a sensitive subject.

Anyhoo. Yay for making it to the Top 200! This is both a good and bad thing: good because I'm still here, and bad because I fear what you have in store for us XD

I got into that lively discussion. But so far, I don't believe I've left any critical comments. As a beginner in this competition, I don't think I really know what is best. I only know what I like.

In general etiquette, sometimes it is best to ask particular people to help you improve. Or to ask if a writer would like a beta for a work. This was one of the things I mentioned in the Work Room, that some writers are not at the stage of things where they want or need criticism. A critical person can do a lot of harm to a sensitive or fledgling writer.

I have had disagreements over commas and spelling (Brits spell things differently for example). It is all a matter of perspective. I've had a beta quit in a huff because I refused to change the direction of a story to suit her. On the other hand, I had to accept that some people were obviously going to hate the direction I went with the story. Both of our opinions were valid. But when it comes right down to it the author's opinion (outside of strict syntax and grammar, of course) is the most important one.

Honestly, I would love to leave constructive criticism (I can't call it concrit. It bothers me. :p). My problem is that I tend to come off as...a bitch, to put it bluntly, when I leave comments like that.

Do *you* want concrit? Because this Green Room is in bold with no paragraph breaks.

...You're going to break someone's legs??? How evil.

Thanks! ^_^

I came to Idol not knowing what I had agreed to. I didn't do it to have a critique of my work, although, I usually know the faults are there, !! just try to avoid looking. Head in the sand attitude. But if they are pointed out I accept and change what I can.
I am in awe of the people I have met so far. It blows me away when I actually get time to read all of the entries, the wide scope of experience; knowledge; wisdom, and feelings expressed. Some styles or subjects I would never enter, but that is probably the draw, someone does, and I find that stimulating. I would not like rules imposed on us. Agree we can take it or leave it, which is basically what Gary said. Now before I fall asleep over the keyboard had better stop.

There have been many, many good points made in the Work Room, and I suspect that, as with other Idol-wide topics, both sides are going to sprout whiskers and tails ;)

My overall feeling is that if you want concrit, ask for it. Don't presume everybody wants it if you're dying to give it.

My other thought? Part of me is afraid all this concrit talk is going to frighten off some people.

Me, personally? I'm lucky if I can read everybody when the poll goes up :p Because my RL time is usually limited, I tend not to leave as many comments as I ordinarily would. I feel badly about that, and I apologize.

Edited 2011-12-07 12:01 (UTC)

Morning Green Room! I'm still around, I swear (really)!! I'm thinking about a Home Game entry for this week and coming up with bupkis! Har har har.

Today, I wait for important phone calls regarding my future FIL. Woooo... stress.

~*::Meow::*~

Wow! This year I've had trouble gaining ground, and last week I was SURE I was out, but am grateful to still be in the running...

holy early green room, batman!

Honestly, coming from a fandom perspective, I've always been ok with concrit, but I'd prefer it in the PM form, because I just hate seeing those comments when I go back and reread old entries

That said, I definitely think it should be up to the person journaling to indicate whether or not concrit is wanted/asked for

I have a hard time giving it, because the entries I actually comment on tend to be the ones I vote for, which tend to be super awesome

That said, I have an interesting idea to post for this week, but I think I need to be more emotionally stable when I write it

When I really want some concrit on a piece, I'll usually ask some of my friends to read it over before I post--often I'm trying to accomplish something in particular in terms of style or form, and asking people who know me and my interests can be helpful... I try to write things that will resonate with both a general audience and with an 'inside' audience. (Not that I have any specific inside audience in mind, just that there are often allusions and references and nods embedded in my work for those who care to find them).

That said, I'm not opposed to receiving concrit on my entries once they're posted--as long as the criticism truly is constructive. But if someone is using the banner of concrit as a license to be a douchebag on my journal or those of other contestants, I'm not likely to look kindly on it. Intentionally being really nasty is one of an exceedingly small number of offenses one can commit in Idol that is likely to result in me never reading or voting for someone's entries again.

And now that I've said my two cents, I'm going to try to get a little more rest, since the baby has decided that 6am is when she wakes up, regardless of when she goes to sleep... but her grandfather is hanging out with her for the moment, so I can get more rest. Huzzah!

"Hunker Down" is my phrase for the week. Yesterday I hunkered down to crochet as much as I could (which ended up being about the equivalent of one glove, but it was really good progress, considering how long I've been working on these gloves). Today I hunker down at work and try to get a super masive project done by friday, on top of normal work duties. ugh.

Certainly hoping that the idea tadpoles in my head attach to something tangible by the time I get home tonight. Really need to start pushing that effort out earlier in the week :P

I've been up most of the night with a very sick Jack Dog. He finally calmed down around 5AM. I tried sleeping on the downstairs couch just to be closer to the back door. I haven't been able to fall back asleep, so right now I'm buzzing on caffeine. Help me :thunk:

Wow, I outlasted 100? That is nice to know. I'm feeling kind of down today.

Hey, I did something:) these last few weeks.

I'm tired. About to take a college final. Worried.

I hope everyone else is having a good day though?

While trying to come up with something for this week, I wrote a thank you post that I hope you'll all read: http://bonnie-rocks.livejournal.com/215865.html

~*::Meow::*~

Having read through the entire Work Room, I'm still torn about the concrit issue. However, an idea just came to mind--and I'm willing to acknowledge that I may be totally off-base here, but here goes:

Most people seem to think that their concrit is going to be the only thing they say about an entry--i.e., they're leaving one comment and that's it. I believe, however, that concrit is supposed to be a conversation, and it doesn't have to be the writer who initiates it--but both sides need to consent to the conversation.

So, fellow writers, I ask you: Would it be okay if I were to leave a comment on your entry saying, "I liked this piece, but I believe it can be even better. Would you like some constructive feedback?" This leaves you the option of opening the dialogue or respectfully declining. And, of course, it is incumbent on me to accept either answer with equal grace.

Just my $0.02.

To me idol is a great time to practice my writing. I love feedback especially if it is something I can learn from. I seem to get very little feedback though. Maybe I need to ask for it. When I give feedback some people are thankful and others get on the defensive, so it makes me not want to pass out feedback anymore.

I believe any sort of concrit that's more than "psst, you've got a 'there' for a 'their' in the third paragraph" should always be via private message or email. (Unless the author has explicitly stated they are open to concrit for their pieces via comments.) I mean, I even send the 'psst' variety via PM, lol, but really, I don't think too many people would be too upset about typo-style comments on the entry itself.

I think it's simply a respect issue -- you as the reader are making an awfully big assumption if you just comment with concrit publicly, and risk making someone feel badly about their piece. And I don't just mean 'delicate souls who can't handle it' (a theme I often here in concrit discussions, as Gary alluded to -- the belief that 'well, everyone should be open to concrit because *I* think they should' and so on). It can be as simple as not wanting to have a comment like that sit for a day, affecting how other viewers see the piece, etc, when the author hasn't been online to engage with the comment author. (Not everyone is online 24x7). Private contact ensures that the author sees it, but gives them the ability to respond/engage on their own time schedule.

I guess another way to put it is this -- is the reason you're giving concrit to truly help the author improve their piece? If so, then there's little reason to make that conversation public unless the author has said they want it that way. Ping 'em via PM, say 'Hey, I have a few thoughts about your piece, do you want to hear them' and then let them take it from there.

I mostly joined idol to share ideas and stories, not so much for the technical aspect. I'm not opposed to improving, but unless it's a straight up technical correction, I'm not that interested in hearing it. Simply because the enjoyment of other people's writing is so subjective. And to me, it's all about the enjoyment.

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